Why CDs May Actually Sound Better Than Vinyl

What is your preferred format for listening to audio

  • I have only digital in my system and prefer digital

    Votes: 17 26.2%
  • I have only vinyl in my system and prefer vinyl

    Votes: 4 6.2%
  • I have both digital and vinyl in my system. I prefer digital

    Votes: 10 15.4%
  • I have both digital and vinyl in my system. I prefer vinyl

    Votes: 17 26.2%
  • I have both digital and vinyl in my system. I like both

    Votes: 11 16.9%
  • I have only digital in my system but also like vinyl

    Votes: 6 9.2%
  • I have only vinyl in my system but also like digital

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    65
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Mike, you're clearly at the top of the audio food chain but you're also in the minority. Got it, you have the best of the best which you've stated over and over and maybe, just maybe in that cost-no-object category vinyl wins. But for the rest of us on planet earth digital sounds great within our budget. And I think even better than vinyl for the $ . (...) )

It is not Mike alone who has this view, many other members of WBF with other systems have stated similar views.

BTW, IMHO the main the question this thread is addressing is not what most of us use at home, convenience or value for money. It is what we prefer in absolute terms of sound quality and why.

I have a different perspective from you considering budget. It is not the budget level that separates the the vinyl from CD, but mostly the expertise and experience of those assembling the system. Having a good knowledge of equipment and experience allows the owner to assemble a great sounding analog system at any cost. However with digital it is much more difficult to advise and find digital equipment that really matches our preference when inserted in our system. Digital sound is, in some sense, a slippery entity - it is not easy to guess how it interacts with a system.
 
This post is too focused on dollars instead of Sonics

Sorry I didn't realize you made the rules for threads...

Last time I checked there was no mention of focusing solely on cost no object digital vs analog. Unless you have an unlimited budget, cost matters. And in many (most?) cases those that prefer analog have inferior priced/sonic quality digital which may further exacerbate their bias against digital, IME.
 
I believe that much of our talking past each other on threads like this stems from holding different objectives of high-end audio, and from not starting the debate with those different objectives firmly and explicitly in mind.

I also believe that much other consternation arises simply from the well-known incomparability of interpersonal utility (e.g., there is no objective, principled way to prove that you like chocolate ice cream more than I like vanilla ice cream).

Finally, each of us is going to apply a different monetary value to a given improvement in sound. (And this assumes we can even agree there was an improvement in sound. One audiophile's "welcome increase in detail" is another audiophile's "edgy and fatiguing.") It is no surprise that these debates go in circles.

So, sbo6, there is no objective, externally verifiable right and wrong here. You are correct for how you think, and Mike L is correct for how he thinks.

Thanks Ron, I was about to reply back to Mike with similar sentiments but you said it better than me. Peace and love, peace and love...
 
It is not Mike alone who has this view, many other members of WBF with other systems have stated similar views.

BTW, IMHO the main the question this thread is addressing is not what most of us use at home, convenience or value for money. It is what we prefer in absolute terms of sound quality and why.

I have a different perspective from you considering budget. It is not the budget level that separates the the vinyl from CD, but mostly the expertise and experience of those assembling the system. Having a good knowledge of equipment and experience allows the owner to assemble a great sounding analog system at any cost. However with digital it is much more difficult to advise and find digital equipment that really matches our preference when inserted in our system. Digital sound is, in some sense, a slippery entity - it is not easy to guess how it interacts with a system.



If Digital is the interest and a person subscribes to the synergy philosophy then the person will simply just as you did, learn to navigate within their medium forest. Multiplicity of brands, approaches, philosophies, thus, results/sounds, is not endemic to digital nor to analog for that matter.
Digital (or analog) sound are no more slippery than the "synergy" slope :)
 
It is not Mike alone who has this view, many other members of WBF with other systems have stated similar views.

BTW, IMHO the main the question this thread is addressing is not what most of us use at home, convenience or value for money. It is what we prefer in absolute terms of sound quality and why.

I have a different perspective from you considering budget. It is not the budget level that separates the the vinyl from CD, but mostly the expertise and experience of those assembling the system. Having a good knowledge of equipment and experience allows the owner to assemble a great sounding analog system at any cost. However with digital it is much more difficult to advise and find digital equipment that really matches our preference when inserted in our system. Digital sound is, in some sense, a slippery entity - it is not easy to guess how it interacts with a system.

I would argue it's both. The equipment you require to have good knowledge and experience to deliver synergy has an associated cost. That cost in most cases is directly related to quality (both build and sound, sometimes aesthetics).
 
In fairness, this would be a major factor for me since a huge proportion of my listening these days is of classical discs recorded in the last 30 years.

That holds for me too. And I actually listen for a very major part to classical contemporary avant-garde and to modern jazz avant-garde. These are basically Redbook 16/44 only, with a few exceptions.

So vinyl is out for me also for this reason. Yet I will readily acknowledge that there is a vast catalog of fantastic music out there on vinyl, which can keep you busy for a long time. So vinyl is a good choice for a great catalog of music, even though it may not always be what I personally would put the most emphasis on to listen to.

Same cannot be said for digital hi-res. From a music perspective, it is pretty much irrelevant for me. Others will think differently, no doubt.
 
Sorry I didn't realize you made the rules for threads...

Last time I checked there was no mention of focusing solely on cost no object digital vs analog. Unless you have an unlimited budget, cost matters. And in many (most?) cases those that prefer analog have inferior priced/sonic quality digital which may further exacerbate their bias against digital, IME.

No, what is being pointed out that cost is not important. Vinyl backers have maintained (see Micro's post as well) that lower cost vinyl well set up can beat Sota digital. So, not sure why you keep putting costs in, not to mention the expensive digital, or analog, is not necessarily the best. And you keep making these assertions "And in many (most?) cases those that prefer analog have inferior priced/sonic quality digital which may further exacerbate their bias against digital, IME." which have no foundation
 
If Digital is the interest and a person subscribes to the synergy philosophy then the person will simply just as you did, learn to navigate within their medium forest. Multiplicity of brands, approaches, philosophies, thus, results/sounds, is not endemic to digital nor to analog for that matter.
Digital (or analog) sound are no more slippery than the "synergy" slope :)

Yes, but navigation through the analog waters is much less critical, easier and predictable than digital. Also it depends on clear variables, known since long. We can exchange a cartridge in five minutes, tune the suspension of the turntable, use different values of loading. In digital you can only tune with non predictable entities - power and digital cables. Most CD players or DACs will sound only acceptable or poor when brought in a system, only a few times you are lucky.

And yes, I am navigating in digital waters. Unfortunately when I compare with the results with the analog navigation, for some types of music, I am not fully pleased ... Fortunately it is just an hobby!
 
No, what is being pointed out that cost is not important. Vinyl backers have maintained (see Micro's post as well) that lower cost vinyl well set up can beat Sota digital. So, not sure why you keep putting costs in, not to mention the expensive digital, or analog, is not necessarily the best. And you keep making these assertions "And in many (most?) cases those that prefer analog have inferior priced/sonic quality digital which may further exacerbate their bias against digital, IME." which have no foundation

Foundation? There is no foundation in anyone's comments, it's all opinion. Where's the "foundation" in your statement that "lower cost vinyl well set up can beat Sota digital"? It's an opinion. Also, others agree that cost matters. And IME many vinyl owners have less expensive digital. Let's be frank, to get to What's Best costs $. Do you deny that? So why shouldn't cost be included? Or does WBF = open checkbook...
 
Yes, but navigation through the analog waters is much less critical, easier and predictable than digital. Also it depends on clear variables, known since long. We can exchange a cartridge in five minutes, tune the suspension of the turntable, use different values of loading. In digital you can only tune with non predictable entities - power and digital cables. Most CD players or DACs will sound only acceptable or poor when brought in a system, only a few times you are lucky.

And yes, I am navigating in digital waters. Unfortunately when I compare with the results with the analog navigation, for some types of music, I am not fully pleased ... Fortunately it is just an hobby!

We can go back and forth on this for a long time. This is an analog-leaning person point of view. "Known since long" by whom? A person knowledgeable in analog more so than digital? Clearly "yes" for a person whose knowledge is mostly analog. The digital person would know or learn his/her ways around what a given digital component brings to the table .. Example onthe software side are the myriad of combination available through HQPLayer or the multiple setting on the OS that purportedly change this or that...And DACs do sound different,some maitian that USB and even Ethernet:rolleyes: cables sound different. How different is that from experimenting with cartridge, Arms, TT, weight, platters, Head-map? You may be loath to admit but it is the same.

And I didn't for second think you would not navigate through the binary waters; you're too passionate and knowledgeable about music reproduction not to. Your perspective remains however that of an analog-loving person
 
Foundation? There is no foundation in anyone's comments, it's all opinion. Where's the "foundation" in your statement that "lower cost vinyl well set up can beat Sota digital"? It's an opinion. Also, others agree that cost matters. Let's be frank, to get to What's Best costs $. Do you deny that? So why shouldn't cost be included?

Examples were already stated. I think you are focusing too much on your own kit. Your statement that "many (most?) cases those that prefer analog have inferior priced/sonic quality digital which may further exacerbate their bias against digital, IME." shows that you think people evaluate based only on their own systems, which is a sample of 1 each.
 
Very interesting thread and in the common opinion the discussion is very friendly, moreover I found it very informative.
I am in the camp ot those who believe the recording , editing and mastering are as important as source if not more.
Since 70 /80 years all analog new recordings are made from digital master and this is the reason I hardly believe in the theoretical advantage of vinyl vs cd.
In practice we do not understand why even a cheap analog rig is so much pleasant to our ears/brain combo which is the fact for most of us.
The development of digital reproduction and DSD in particular brought new solution to those who put timbre , palpability and 3 D sound over the extreme resolution and dynamics.
I do not see nor hear any advantage of cd over hires pcm and dsd, while I still appreciate the overall presentation of vinyl being aware of its theoretical flaws.
So for me analog and good quality files are the best sources of music but I still keep my VRDS player to play sacd from time to time.
 
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That is rather presumptious and I have to say rather self-servicing comment. I have already offered my own opinions in this thread on the subject. Maybe you have missed them so I will reiterate.

I have already provided my opinions as to the two principal reasons why vinyl sounds good and they are both directly related to the lack of the sample rate and bit depth limitations inherent in the digital process. The first (sampling rate related) is that all the shortcomings of the analogue process are not nearly as destructive to good sound as the completely unavoidable brickwall digital filtering used by necessity to produce CD masters at the sampling rate of 44.1 KHz (and may or may not be used a second time around for subsequent consumer replay). This problem is only overcome in production stages by employing a sample rate sufficiently high such that the filtering does not audibly effect the program material. Such filtering is not required for vinyl LP replay, nor is it required for other excellent sounding analogue formats.

Additionally, digital noise is not benign like analogue noise is. You can have a digital noise floor 130 or more dB down on the actual program material and it still negatively effects the sound of that program material itself, even though the noise itself is inaudible. Such noise in the digital domain is also completely impossible to avoid - whether it be caused by lack of bits, jitter or other noise inducing processes in the digital production and reproduction chain. The only things that can be done is to reduce it as much as possible by increased bit depths, fanatical attention to power supply and fanatical attention to clock integrity and precision - things that are not nearly as important in the pure analogue domain (though remain important just the same).


Noise in the analogue domain on the other hand simply sits there as a benign background to the music, not interfering in any way with the subjective quality of program material - unless of course the noise is really bad. You can have a "terrible" signal to noise with vinyl of 50-something dB and that still has no effect on the quality of the actual music itself. The music just sits there and the noise sits beneath it. I have never experienced analogue noise so bad that it detracts or reduces the quality of the music program itself, except in the days where I had very cheap equipment and played cheap tapes or cheap vinyl.

The third reason is to why I believe vinyl "sounds nice" is because there are no issues with impulse response as there are for CD and indeed higher (but still low) sample rates. The human ear can easily detect impulses that far exceed the capabilities of the CD standard which is one good reason as to why the sound of vinyl has an immediacy and easy, natural flow to it that is largely missing from CD - because those things in my experience are not musically relevant in the analogue domain. This particular digital shortcoming can admittedly often be overcome by upsampling again at playback, but as I have mentioned before, upsampling produces it's own colourations which I personally do not like, especially as it tends to thin out and sharpen violin timbre - something to which I am incredibly sensitive having spent many years playing that instrument. CD and indeed a lot of digital is beyond hopeless when it comes to the violin - vinyl does it extremely easily on the other hand.

The above reasons, on the other hand, are also why I do not have any problems with 24/96 digital or beyond, since all the shortcomings I have mentioned above are reasonably well-controlled at those specifications. These specs may still potentially produce audible side effects (since no production and reproduction chain can achieve theoretical perfection), however by the time you get to 24/96, it is a case of (relatively minor) sins of omission. I have heard a few 24/192 recordings that in all honesty come so close to what I hear in a concert hall (including massed violins) that it is really hard even for me to reasonably pick fault with it.

Again, I think you have good points here, and they are certainly the result of a lot of experience, but I am not certain how much they all hold for top level CD playback. In particular, I have found solo violin to sound very convincing on CD through the dCS Rossini -- far from hopeless. Same for tenor and baritone saxophone sound, which are in my experience even more problematic on regular CD playback. I would refrain from proclaiming your views as invariable dogma until you have heard top level CD playback.
 
Examples were already stated. I think you are focusing too much on your own kit. Your statement that "many (most?) cases those that prefer analog have inferior priced/sonic quality digital which may further exacerbate their bias against digital, IME." shows that you think people evaluate based only on their own systems, which is a sample of 1 each.

My friend, it is human nature and human bias to speak of what you know and live, we are all walking sample sets = 1 for much of what we say and do. However, we're also all influenced by others and others' systems. I'm not basing my claim(s) on my own but what I've observed over the past 25+ years in audio/music/electronics. Peace and love, peace and love...
 
Again, I think you have good points here, and they are certainly the result of a lot of experience, but I am not certain how much they all hold for top level CD playback. In particular, I have found solo violin to sound very convincing on CD through the dCS Rossini -- far from hopeless. Same for tenor and baritone saxophone sound, which are in my experience even more problematic on regular CD playback. I would refrain from proclaiming your views as invariable dogma until you have heard top level CD playback.

Did you listen to CDs where the violin or sax hadn't sounded good on other digital?
 
Examples were already stated. I think you are focusing too much on your own kit. Your statement that "many (most?) cases those that prefer analog have inferior priced/sonic quality digital which may further exacerbate their bias against digital, IME." shows that you think people evaluate based only on their own systems, which is a sample of 1 each.

I, for one, have formed my opinion about digital audio based on listening to a lot of different CD players, transport/DAC combos, and server/DAC combos in other people's systems and at dealer demonstrations, usually listening to familiar music. I have listened to various gear changes as owners have upgraded over time. And I think my experience covers a fairly wide range of prices. I think digital is getting very good, and I would love to audition the Rossini in my own system for an extended period listening to music that I know well.

I think Al M. made an excellent point when he wrote that much of the choice for any listener depends on the format where he is most likely to find the kind of music he most listens to. Perhaps equally important is the format one already owns software on. For many, that is redbook CD or LP. It is then an interesting decision about adding a new format with new software, or improving the format one already has. This balance is often different for each of us.

However, that is really not the original topic of this thread, but it may help to explain why people hold their opinions and where their experience comes from.
 
Personally, I keep getting caught up on the idea that
1) digital is "closer" to the mic feed; but
2) analogue gives a sound subjectively "closer" to "reality".
(The "" are there for obvious reasons.)

These things can both be true at the same time, of course, there's no real reason why not. However, I find myself unconvinced by arguments trying to show either 1 or 2 to be false.
 
I, for one, have formed my opinion about digital audio based on listening to a lot of different CD players, transport/DAC combos, and server/DAC combos in other people's systems and at dealer demonstrations, usually listening to familiar music. I have listened to various gear changes as owners have upgraded over time. And I think my experience covers a fairly wide range of prices. I think digital is getting very good, and I would love to audition the Rossini in my own system for an extended period listening to music that I know well.

+1

Also, I'd like to see how much better the Rossini is vs. my Esoteric K-03 + external clock.
 
Did you listen to CDs where the violin or sax hadn't sounded good on other digital?

I know this is meant for Al M, but I was with him for his Rossini audition and we played a selection of his CDs which we have heard many times on his own system. They were more convincing through the Rossini. We also compared those same CDs through three different digital players in the same system that day. They sounded best to me through the Rossini, and especially the violin and sax instruments on those recordings. It was quite startling in fact, because the reproduction reminded both of us of the high level of resolution we hear with good analog and a complete absence of digital artifacts which I usually hear as fatigue inducing glare and harshness. In essence, the individual notes sounded more complete and natural. Overall resolution and timbral accuracy in particular was highest with the Rossini DAC and the same transport that Al has in his own system. It was a memorable listening session. He started a thread on this subject elsewhere on the forum.
 
I, for one, have formed my opinion about digital audio based on listening to a lot of different CD players, transport/DAC combos, and server/DAC combos in other people's systems and at dealer demonstrations, usually listening to familiar music. I have listened to various gear changes as owners have upgraded over time. And I think my experience covers a fairly wide range of prices.

That was precisely the point I was making to sb06
 
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