Why CDs May Actually Sound Better Than Vinyl

[sbo6]

Because vinyl is envious?

 

[Whatmore]

You joke about it Amir but there is a subset of tv afficionados who hold that the advent of colour tv was a step backwards.

 

[fas42]

I should add that the violin on the 1986 Hungaroton CD of Bartok's violin sonata (excellent interpretation be Kremer, Smirnov) sounds really bad in tone on my DAC (though highly dynamic), whereas other violin sounds good on my DAC, and in some exceptional cases, very good. I was taken aback at how very convincing the Bartok, which I had thought of as a bad recording, sounded through the Rossini. Also one string quartet recording that we listened to sounded very good, much better than in my system. After you had left, Peter, I also played two violin recordings that in my opinion sound very good, though still not stellar, in my system, and they too sounded exceptional on the Rossini.

Yes, those type of recordings are excellent for unearthing remaining issues with the system sound. Extremely intense solo violin, rich with treble and harmonics, reveal the warts beautifully - and this is where digital playback can trip over itself badly; personally, I have found Menuhin's string tone quite a tough one to "tame", it often conveys the impression that he is just sawing away on a tool piece, rather than "making music" ...

 

[ddk]

Amir, you must be of one the top secret guys government brings to spin things after a major F Up !

Atkinson's comparing the resonance frequencies of different arm/cartridge/tt combinations to figure out the effects of the Lingo in the lower frequencies and you counter with a computer generated 12khz test tone, BRAVO! I'll make sure to invite your DAC over for our next a 12khz test tone listening party!

david

At the risk of getting stoned to death, here is the measurements of a Linn Sondek LP12, reproducing a 1 Khz tone with different cartridges and arms. A transparent system would have single sharp line in the middle and absolutely nothing else: http://www.stereophile.com/content/...power-supply-measurements#ERebyA16vPkzCtOd.97

I don't have a 1 Khz test for DACs but have the much harder 12 Khz one from a DAC that I bought 3 years before the above turntable review. Here it is with the same horizontal scale:

You can clearly see the superiority of digital. Its graphs are in color and the LP in black and white!

As I said, case closed.

 

[fas42]

Again, I do not at all dismiss the notion that digital indeed has the potential to be superior as a whole to analog on the technical level (in some areas it measurably was from the beginning), and as I have stated repeatedly, I am convinced that digital theory is correct, current audible problems with practical implementation aside. I personally also find little use for the 'reflection' (good, analog) vs. 'reconstruction' (bad, digital) argument. As a technical argument it demonstrably fails, on several levels. Yet I have as of yet heard very little digital playback that possibly even matches great analog (on the best recordings/pressings) when actually listened to. The correct technical implementation of the theory still needs to be worked on.

IMO it most certainly is - capable of being superior, that is - my experiences to date have always reinforced that belief; I haven't heard vinyl replay in 30 years that has made me think, "Gee, what am I missing!!"

The problem always has been, and most likely will be for some time to come, is that the expertise and knowledge that needs to be brought to bear upon making digital playback artifact free is of a considerable higher order than for vinyl. The latter can be quite comfortably listened to with quite definite aberrations in the sound - digital with a similar level of artifacts that are characteristic of flawed operation by this media type will be quite unlistenable to, by audiophiles.

Completely clean digital playback has no "funniness" to the sound, under any circumstances - it meets the "closeness to real" test with flying colours, IME ...

 

[ddk]

That looks like a graph of vinyl showing digital the middle finger

We should give Amir's DAC a standing ovation for passing a clean 12khz computer generated tone. If you're polite you might get invited to his next test tone party, earplugs are optional !

david

 

[Jazzhead]

We may have to revisit this thread once MQA becomes the norm .... Perfect Sound Forever ?

 

[amirm]

Amir, you must be of one the top secret guys government brings to spin things after a major F Up !

Atkinson's comparing the resonance frequencies of different arm/cartridge/tt combinations to figure out the effects of the Lingo in the lower frequencies and you counter with a computer generated 12khz test tone, BRAVO! I'll make sure to invite your DAC over for our next a 12khz test tone listening party!

david

When I have my colonscopy, they give me this stuff you drink which completely cleans your guts. You keep drinking it until what comes out is clear and drinkable itself (not really but play along). Next time I am at my doctor I ask what the liquid is so that you can feed it to your turntable to produce a clean tone. As it is, it ain't drinkable. Not by me anyway....

 

[Al M.]

When I have my colonscopy, they give me this stuff you drink which completely cleans your guts. You keep drinking it until what comes out is clear and drinkable itself (not really but play along). Next time I am at my doctor I ask what the liquid is so that you can feed it to your turntable to produce a clean tone. As it is, it ain't drinkable. Not by me anyway....

O.k., apart from that, can you please give us a technical rebuttal for David's assertion, Amir? I certainly would want one (as you will know by now).

Thanks
Al

 

[rbbert]

O.k., apart from that, can you please give us a technical rebuttal for David's assertion, Amir? I certainly would want one (as you will know by now).

Thanks
Al

I must have missed it; what was his assertion? It appears to me he was just making fun of amir posting a graph?

 

[microstrip]

At the risk of getting stoned to death, here is the measurements of a Linn Sondek LP12, reproducing a 1 Khz tone with different cartridges and arms. A transparent system would have single sharp line in the middle and absolutely nothing else: http://www.stereophile.com/content/...power-supply-measurements#ERebyA16vPkzCtOd.97

I don't have a 1 Khz test for DACs but have the much harder 12 Khz one from a DAC that I bought 3 years before the above turntable review. Here it is with the same horizontal scale:

You can clearly see the superiority of digital. Its graphs are in color and the LP in black and white!

As I said, case closed.

Case re-opened until you show us a similar plot of a 25 kHz tone taken from a CD player output when playing a redbook test CD ...

 

[amirm]

We should give Amir's DAC a standing ovation for passing a clean 12khz computer generated tone.

There is more than that David. You see this graph?

And

And

All three were generated thusly by JA:

"Footnote 2: I keep finding new uses for DRA Laboratories MLSSA system, which is possibly the best bargain in test equipment around right now, incorporating as it does a complete 12-bit storage oscilloscope with a programmable anti-aliasing filter, a digital signal generator, and a wide variety of post-processing software for around $3000"

Translating, a 12-bit analog to digital converter was enough to show all the changes in LP performance and extract all of its errors! Not 16 bits in CD. But just 12 bits! Talk about bit deficiency and jealousy!

Question: if a 12 bit digital system can hear those distortions, how come you all can't?

 

[amirm]

Case re-opened until you show us a similar plot of a 25 kHz tone taken from a CD player output when playing a redbook test CD ...

Got caught with my pants down on that one.

 

[Al M.]

got caught with my pants down on that one.

Hehe.

 

[microstrip]

(...)
Question: if a 12 bit digital system can hear those distortions, how come you all can't?

Amir,

We all hear them - this is not the question that has been addressed in this thread. What people comment and debate is that in spite of all these known and measurable defects in vinyl, the currently non measurable in a standard way distortions of digital or the poor use of the digital media make digital in some specific cases inferior to vinyl in terms of perceived sound quality for many listeners.

 

[FrantzM]

You joke about it Amir but there is a subset of tv afficionados who hold that the advent of colour tv was a step backwards.

I can top that one. There is a subset of audiophiles who maintain the wax cylinder would do a few things better (At least they didn't say) than today's analog... Too bad I can't find the link.

 

[thedudeabides]

We should give Amir's DAC a standing ovation for passing a clean 12khz computer generated tone. If you're polite you might get invited to his next test tone party, earplugs are optional !

david

Or maybe something you can discuss in a relevant, respectful manner, within the context of this thread, absent your bias and sarcasm.

 

[Al M.]

I can top that one. There is a subset of audiophiles who maintain the wax cylinder would do a few things better (At least they didn't say) than today's analog... Too bad I can't find the link.

I'm getting a lot of laughs from this thread I must say...

 

[XV-1]

From page 1 you could see it was going to be a biased article. Record with scratches all over it - oh please

 

[ddk]

LOL, Borat again ?

Good thing I'm not the one caught with my pants down!

There is more than that David. You see this graph?

And

And

All three were generated thusly by JA:

"Footnote 2: I keep finding new uses for DRA Laboratories MLSSA system, which is possibly the best bargain in test equipment around right now, incorporating as it does a complete 12-bit storage oscilloscope with a programmable anti-aliasing filter, a digital signal generator, and a wide variety of post-processing software for around $3000"

Translating, a 12-bit analog to digital converter was enough to show all the changes in LP performance and extract all of its errors! Not 16 bits in CD. But just 12 bits! Talk about bit deficiency and jealousy!

Question: if a 12 bit digital system can hear those distortions, how come you all can't?