Why do Martin Logans sound lean/ thin (transparent) compared to other stats?

[LL21]

Lloyd,

You should listen to the new top subwoofer from Martin Logan - BalancedForce 212, playing with the CLX . Our distributor has now this system playing in his large room, and a few friends who listened to it said it was on par with the top systems he had in the room.

I love it...I have heard the CLX and was most impressed with many elements, but the dealer could never quite get the full-ness of the bodies and weight. The transparency and space between the images was truly spell-binding...I was captivated. But when I went back to cones, I lost that magic, but got back the weight/body which I also appreciated.

When the dealer added the Descents, they could never quite get it all to work right to take it that quantum leap forward. If the Balanced Force now do that, then this is quite exciting. (For me), panels do something very very special which I really enjoy. but they could not quite deliver the slam/power and fullness of the best cones and so in spite of being captivated by panel magic...I have never owned a pair in the end much as I have tried on at least 2-3 occasions.

Now that the Neolith has been announced...if these Balanced Force subs are as good as it seems...then a pair of subs with these Neoliths could be QUITE a magical AND ALL-OUT setup.

 

[LL21]

How much are the ML Balanced Force 212s?

 

[audio.bill]

How much are the ML Balanced Force 212s?

According to the ML website the US list price is $3,995 each.

 

[LL21]

According to the ML website the US list price is $3,995 each.

Thank you!

 

[JonFo]

Question for you:

- Taking the new Neolith and its 22"x48" panel...if we hooked up superbly powerful and fast subs (pick a name)...ML's own subs or Magico QSubs or Krell Master Ref Sub, etc...do you think the 22x48 panel has the ability to match the effortless scale of large cone speakers? The nuances, the detail, speed, transparency...I am comfortably with what I expect to hear from the panels.

But the slam/scale and 'meat on the bones' is something I have come to appreciate when listening to Arrakis, XLFs, Genesis 1s, etc. So curious how much panel one needs to match this level? Is this why you have added your line array to the panels of the Monoliths? Or was it for a different reason?

Most of the 'slam' most people refer to is the mid-bass (80 - 400Hz), and especially the chest-cavity resonance at 160Hz (IIRC) at high SPL. It takes a lot of displacement to go loud. Which is why most of those speaker you mention have multiple mid-bass and bass drivers.

Any panel speaker suffers from a fundamental loss of output in those ranges due to dipole cancellation. As wonderful as the Dualforce bass panels in the CLX are, physics dictates the bass will just not be there as it would if they were in a monopole configuration, ideally an infinite baffle alignment (no back pressure).

So even with the large 22x48 panels in my Monoliths, I cross over to the woofer at 315Hz and let it handle from there down to 60Hz, where I then hand off to the quad-driver Infinite Baffle sub.

So to answer your sub question, you do indeed still need a sub, multiples ideally so that you can place them to deal with room modes. But for best match to an ESL, I have to say nothing beats an Infinite baffle setup. The uber-low distortion and high SPL abilities are magical when well blended (see note above about tuning).
I used to run two Velodyne ULD-18s in the same room before my IB sub, and I can tell you, the difference was huge.

Finally, one can indeed have plenty of 'slam', it just takes a rig set up like mine to get there with ESLs. The mid-bass line arrays for the Monoliths will give me that last bit (and better match my center). So even as cool as the Neolith is, if I had one, I'd still do the mid-bass line array.

 

[JonFo]

...
When the dealer added the Descents, they could never quite get it all to work right to take it that quantum leap forward. If the Balanced Force now do that, then this is quite exciting. (For me), panels do something very very special which I really enjoy. but they could not quite deliver the slam/power and fullness of the best cones and so in spite of being captivated by panel magic...I have never owned a pair in the end much as I have tried on at least 2-3 occasions.

Now that the Neolith has been announced...if these Balanced Force subs are as good as it seems...then a pair of subs with these Neoliths could be QUITE a magical AND ALL-OUT setup.

Those balanced force subs are very good indeed. But the challenge is not just in procuring a good sub, it's in tuning the entire system, and without both a good speaker processor and measurement rig, it's near impossible to do by using the simple controls on the subs.

The good news is that the Balanced Force subs have PBK automatic room correction on board as well as custom downloadable filters to match existing ML speakers such as the CLX. So getting that setup is now much easier.

So yes, a Neolith + a pair of Balanced Force subs would have the low-end well covered, but it would still lack the mid-bass 'slam' you like in your dynamic speakers.

 

[LL21]

Those balanced force subs are very good indeed. But the challenge is not just in procuring a good sub, it's in tuning the entire system, and without both a good speaker processor and measurement rig, it's near impossible to do by using the simple controls on the subs.

The good news is that the Balanced Force subs have PBK automatic room correction on board as well as custom downloadable filters to match existing ML speakers such as the CLX. So getting that setup is now much easier.

So yes, a Neolith + a pair of Balanced Force subs would have the low-end well covered, but it would still lack the mid-bass 'slam' you like in your dynamic speakers.

This is extremely helpful. In a word, you have basically built a kind of Statement E2 using your Monoliths as the base, and then adding the line arrays and the IB sub. Is this about correct?

 

[microstrip]

A good friend of mine owns the Monolith III. They are crossed at 125 Hz and the speaker does a wonderful job, voices are really great. I imagine that crossing them at 315 Hz would take most of the magic of them, although it would result in allowed louder sound levels, something he is not interested.

I have owned Prodigy's, that were crossed at 250 Hz. I remember that Martin Logan literature considered that covering the 250 Hz upwards with a single transducer was a key point in their top speakers. IMHO my friend Monolith III is a better speaker than were my Prodigy's, although the Monolith woofer was much less defined in the low bass. If it was not my long time emotional connection with Soundlabs I would own a pair of Monolith IIIs or the CLX with Descents.

 

[LL21]

?.. If it was not my long time emotional connection with Soundlabs I would own a pair of Monolith IIIs or the CLX with Descents.

As you are a Wilson and SF owner, how do you think the Neolithic plus Balanced Sub compare with an XLF or Sonus Faber? Those cones are fast, nuanced and among the closest to electrostatic delivery. Just curious if you think it is possible ML's marketing of ML Statement like performance could be true. Most intriguing if it is! How did you find Monoliths plus sub to compare in all-out scale?

 

[LL21]

Those balanced force subs are very good indeed. But the challenge is not just in procuring a good sub, it's in tuning the entire system, and without both a good speaker processor and measurement rig, it's near impossible to do by using the simple controls on the subs.

The good news is that the Balanced Force subs have PBK automatic room correction on board as well as custom downloadable filters to match existing ML speakers such as the CLX. So getting that setup is now much easier.

So yes, a Neolith + a pair of Balanced Force subs would have the low-end well covered, but it would still lack the mid-bass 'slam' you like in your dynamic speakers.

Thanks...very very helpful!

 

[JonFo]

A good friend of mine owns the Monolith III. They are crossed at 125 Hz and the speaker does a wonderful job, voices are really great. I imagine that crossing them at 315 Hz would take most of the magic of them, although it would result in allowed louder sound levels, something he is not interested.

Hi Micro, It's all about the balance with the woofer, using the factory original woofer, no way, but with a driver explicitly chosen to cover the 60 - 400Hz range and using steep crossovers, the magic is there along with actual output in the mid-bass. Maybe not as purely as if the panel we're allowed to go below 200Hz, but then dipole cancelation kills output. Even that huge panel can't deliver <300Hz at 105dB SPL (my target output).
One also has to consider the increase in incidence of 'drumhead resonance' at the lower frequencies in large curved panels. Crossing over higher avoids that.

Power curves are a critical part of a high-performance loudspeaker, and I just can't abide power compression from any design, so I ensure my rig delivers consistently all the way to 105dB.

BTW tell your friend that he needs to try an active crossover and should consider updating the woofer, the factory passives and original driver suck.

I have owned Prodigy's, that were crossed at 250 Hz. I remember that Martin Logan literature considered that covering the 250 Hz upwards with a single transducer was a key point in their top speakers. IMHO my friend Monolith III is a better speaker than were my Prodigy's, although the Monolith woofer was much less defined in the low bass. If it was not my long time emotional connection with Soundlabs I would own a pair of Monolith IIIs or the CLX with Descents.

The Monoliths (modded as I have) are still an amazing speaker 20 years on. A pair of CLX with 2 dual force subs would be very cool. I also keep getting temped by Soundlab A1's ever time I see one come up on AGon, I'd love to try and tame one of those beasts.

 

[JonFo]

This is extremely helpful. In a word, you have basically built a kind of Statement E2 using your Monoliths as the base, and then adding the line arrays and the IB sub. Is this about correct?

Sort of, the e2 did combine ESL panels with mid-bass line arrays, but in that instance, those were dipole arrays (again subject to loss of output, but very low distortion). The e2 further had the sub towers (6 x 12" drivers per side).

So my rig picks up the concept that the best dispersion match for an ESL line array is a line array for the mid-bass, but with a sealed alignment in my case. It then uses the IB sub for the low end.

 

[LL21]

Sort of, the e2 did combine ESL panels with mid-bass line arrays, but in that instance, those were dipole arrays (again subject to loss of output, but very low distortion). The e2 further had the sub towers (6 x 12" drivers per side).

So my rig picks up the concept that the best dispersion match for an ESL line array is a line array for the mid-bass, but with a sealed alignment in my case. It then uses the IB sub for the low end.

Got it. Thanks...very much appreciate your taking the time. I am nearing the [nice position to be in] of having a settled set of electronics...and thus dream speakers are what is left.

 

[Jazzhead]

Heard the Martin Logan Neolith's in Munchen on the opening day , walked out unimpressed . Heard them again today , and am glad I did . It seems that it was a brand new pair with very little or no run In . They have been playing it continuously , even past legal hours . Seems to have done the trick .Let's get this straight , it's a great transducer !!! it's leagues ahead of the Prodigy , if that's a relevant comparison , paired with the Moon Audio gear , it sounded as transparent to the source as only stats can , with class leading transient response , very we'll controlled dispersion and no fading of grip as the pitch dropped . An almost seamless handover to it"s hybrid woofer section . Imaging was right up there with the best , it also had a wide sweet spot , not the vice like laser beam of old . I think they are on to something special with this design , I am eager to hear it again and with different amps to get more in touch with its character . Lean and Thin , no way Jose !!!!

 

[LL21]

Heard the Martin Logan Neolith's in Munchen on the opening day , walked out unimpressed . Heard them again today , and am glad I did . It seems that it was a brand new pair with very little or no run In . They have been playing it continuously , even past legal hours . Seems to have done the trick .Let's get this straight , it's a great transducer !!! it's leagues ahead of the Prodigy , if that's a relevant comparison , paired with the Moon Audio gear , it sounded as transparent to the source as only stats can , with class leading transient response , very we'll controlled dispersion and no fading of grip as the pitch dropped . An almost seamless handover to it"s hybrid woofer section . Imaging was right up there with the best , it also had a wide sweet spot , not the vice like laser beam of old . I think they are on to something special with this design , I am eager to hear it again and with different amps to get more in touch with its character . Lean and Thin , no way Jose !!!!

Great to have WBF Members at the Show! Particularly ones who 'ears' we can calibrate! Thanks, Jazzhead!!! That is great feedback. How do you think the Neoliths compare with the all-out assault speakers we have discussed in the past? Thanks again.

 

[LL21]

Heard the Martin Logan Neolith's in Munchen ... again today , and am glad I did . ... I think they are on to something special with this design , I am eager to hear it again and with different amps to get more in touch with its character . Lean and Thin , no way Jose !!!!

Hey Jazzhead...did you happen to hear them again before you left?

 

[Jazzhead]

Hey Jazzhead...did you happen to hear them again before you left?

LL21, nothing further to add at the moment other than the details posted and communicated to you via PM . Look forward to your thoughts after you manage a listen . Cheers !

 

[LL21]

LL21, nothing further to add at the moment other than the details posted and communicated to you via PM . Look forward to your thoughts after you manage a listen . Cheers !

Thanks!

 

[MtnHam]

I must admit I haven't read thru all 8 pages of this thread, but it appears there is little comment on Sound Labs. Granted, I am a dealer but more so a music lover, and have had many pair of Sound Labs in several different rooms in my homes over the years and have never found them to be thin or lean. Today's larger models are even relatively easy to drive, provide full range and rich timbre, but of course do excel when the system is well put together.

 

[Garth]

...