Will power amps make an audible difference?

As always great to see Atmasphere's thoughts here.


Jacob,
I've usually found that it pays to listen and that the listening should be fun. I wouldn't waste my money buying expensive equipment without first checking it's specs and then trying to audition to get a deeper understanding as well. Read up on technical performance and then have a listen. Listening will usually teach you something. Firstly it will show you that amps with similar specs do not sound exactly the same. If all components did this then we probably wouldn't even be here discussing any of this in the first place.

I'd not live want to live with gear that just measures as technically sufficient if when in use in my system then doesn't prove to actually engage me sufficiently (or deeply) when listening to music much for the same reason that I also don't drink instant coffee. It's not satisfying. Just seems a bit of a waste of time to me at any rate but those are just individual priorities.

First question, why are you shopping for a new amp? If your current gear makes you completely engaged when you play music (if that is your main purpose) consider that your amp may not be a problem within your system and you can save the expense and put the money into other things including music. If your current system isn't keeping you fully engaged however in listening to music then hop on the audition trail like so many before you and just try a few different amps and work out if the issue that makes you want to change your system is indeed your amp. The audition experiences may directly or indirectly lead you to discover why you are not actually happy with your current system and it could be other things and it also could be an expensive process of discovery as many will attest. You have come to the place of the committed and the hopeful where good reasonable budget based explorations suddenly turn into mega buck rides.

That amps can sound so different is the fascinating thing. It's hard in the audition process at times to go beyond and start to also identify the pattern around the fundamentally different basic types of amps but as they often have shared characteristic traits getting a sense of the advantages and constraints of each amp type is helpful.

They tend to have essential and identifiable characterstic qualities and affects which can be critical in how we listen to and respond to music. Given there are clearly patterns and schemes of preferences it also indicates people are likely to have different sensitivities to those artefacts. This is why we should try before we buy or be able to afford to flick and carry the potential loss which is only sustainable for some.

Try and listen to a few examples of class AB solid state that have good current capacity and also some class d as well just to see if there is anything that makes you just want to sit and listen to the music.

Your speakers aren't really playing directly into tube territory because to get a good valve amp that can deliver big enough for that lower sensitivity and work into the load characterstic you could be getting into a higher budget as well. That said, listen to some nice larger valve set-ups anyway and you might find they have some characteristics that work in playing music and if you like that specific experience of music with those kind of types of amps you could go for a good SS amp that drives current well and then later on bring in some of the qualities of valve typologies by considering using a tube preamp.

It's worth a listen either way and there are some great characters out there in this business with plenty of great music and gear that you can hear along the way. Some of my best mates sell audio so I'd never hold that against them. If your going to spend the money take the time and try and get in some good learning and musical experiences along the way.
 
So you are saying that if my existing amp is driving my speakers that it's supplying all the current the speaker needs? So there is no benefit to a dedicated power amp? But I thought a big power amp would mean more current would be delivered to the speaker, and low impedance dips need more current? Am I misunderstanding something here? Bigger amps deliver more power which is a good thing??

If the amp did not play right you would hear a tonal coloration. A dedicated power amp, separate from the preamp, does offer benefit though, but not because it might have more 'current'. Separates allow you to run shorter speaker cables, don't have power supply noise that can talk back to an earlier part of the signal chain (such as the preamp) and so can have less intermodulation distortion, which is a lot more important than low harmonic distortion. Low impedances do indeed require more current, but the real issue here is do you have enough power and is the tonal balance correct? If yes then no worries.

Bigger amps do make more power (hopefully) and that is a good thing as long as they make pleasing sounds along the way.
 
So you are saying that if my existing amp is driving my speakers that it's supplying all the current the speaker needs? So there is no benefit to a dedicated power amp? But I thought a big power amp would mean more current would be delivered to the speaker, and low impedance dips need more current? Am I misunderstanding something here? Bigger amps deliver more power which is a good thing??
I am afraid I find Atmopheres post rather confusing, not being able tO hear vocals throughlong speaker cables !
This is my understanding ,
http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/spkramp.html

Keith
 
I am afraid I find Atmopheres post rather confusing, not being able tO hear vocals throughlong speaker cables !
This is my understanding ,
http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/spkramp.html

Keith

Tell you what. This test will sort it out for you. Find some place you can borrow a lot of cable and run about 80 feet per channel between the amp and speakers. Then replace that with 6 feet and see if you can hear a difference. I did this FWIW, found out the hard way decades ago.

However just to be clear (because I am quite literal sometimes) I didn't say you couldn't hear vocals, I said that with shorter cables you can make them out easier. Its a definition thing.
 
Speaker sensitivity numbers are marketing values. So I would not go by that. Also, this depends on how loud you play things.

Get some very heavy drum tracks (Sheffield Drum... CD is a good test), start playing and pay attention to the tonal quality of the drums. Now keep turning up the volume a few dB at a time. Is there a time when the drum sound becomes thinner even though it is getting louder? If not, and all you hear is the sound getting louder and louder until you get scared :), then you don't need a power amp.
 
I've been told in various audio shops that power amps will make a difference to sound quality, but they are often expensive to purchase. I have a pair of 87 dB sensitivity speakers with impedance dips down to 3.4 ohms. I'm currently using an AVR.

Thinking that more power will bring out the potential in the speakers. From a technical perspective, will adding a power amp result in audible improvements?

I've owned or auditioned maybe 15 - 18 different amps and integrated amp over the past 15 years. I should add that I've only owned 4 different amps in the past 10 years. Certainly not a lot, but enough to easily say that no two amps sound alike as there were and are significant audible differences between each and every amp I've analytically listened to. For example:

One 150wpc amp simply lacked musicality.
One 450wpc amp sounded pretty bad, anything but musical and no dynamics.
One 200wpc amp was fast and sweet (my first experience with either attribute). But it's bass was overwhelmingly ill-defined and thick and essentially disjointed from the fast and sweet mids and highs.
One 300wpc amp had excellent bass definition but the mid's and high's were rather lifeless or flat.
One 300wpc amp had the best (of both worlds) at that time.
One 300wpc amp was the same as the previous amp but on steroids since the mfg'er custom mod'ed the entire amp.
One 160wpc amp easily outperformed the previous 300wpc amp in bass definition and overall more detail and musicality.
One 200wpc amp easily outperformed the previous 160wpc amp except in the bass.
One 575pwc amp easily stomped the performance of the previous 200wpc amp in every category known to me, making the previous amp sound like a $200 receiver from BestBuy in comparison.

Not that it matters to me, but this was using 87db 4ohm, 93db 6ohm, and 89db 4ohm load speakers over the past 15 years. It also seems to me that stated power has little really to do with the quality of bass.

As far as I can tell, there's no reason to think most / all amps sound quite similar or the same.

 
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Speaker sensitivity numbers are marketing values. So I would not go by that. Also, this depends on how loud you play things.

Get some very heavy drum tracks (Sheffield Drum... CD is a good test), start playing and pay attention to the tonal quality of the drums. Now keep turning up the volume a few dB at a time. Is there a time when the drum sound becomes thinner even though it is getting louder? If not, and all you hear is the sound getting louder and louder until you get scared :), then you don't need a power amp.

I think Amir is very cleverly telling you that all your amp should do is make things louder. That assumes it is doing everything else correctly. That is a huge presumption. You might want to read some of the white papers at Atma-Sphere and Sanderssoundsystems.
 
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In today's modern world of class D amplification, it's actually a detriment having the amplifier in a seperate enclosure from the preamp/DAC. This is due to the extra connectors and interconnects the signal must pass through.
 
XPA 5 is a fine amp ..I have used emotiva products and they punch way above their weight
good place to start.
where the amps will come into their own is when you wind the volume up
 
XPA 5 is a fine amp ..I have used emotiva products and they punch way above their weight
good place to start.
where the amps will come into their own is when you wind the volume up

Thanks Rodney for the advice. I don't listen very loud. Will the amp still come into its own?
 
Thanks Rodney for the advice. I don't listen very loud. Will the amp still come into its own?

There's only one way for you to find out for yourself...
 
the sound of Tao"" said:
Jacob,
I've usually found that it pays to listen and that the listening should be fun. I wouldn't waste my money buying expensive equipment without first checking it's specs and then trying to audition to get a deeper understanding as well. Read up on technical performance and then have a listen. Listening will usually teach you something. Firstly it will show you that amps with similar specs do not sound exactly the same. If all components did this then we probably wouldn't even be here discussing any of this in the first place.

Amps with similar specs sound the same? Who says that? Must read into it to learn more. Thanks for your informative post.

First question, why are you shopping for a new amp? If your current gear makes you completely engaged when you play music (if that is your main purpose) consider that your amp may not be a problem within your system and you can save the expense and put the money into other things including music. If your current system isn't keeping you fully engaged however in listening to music then hop on the audition trail like so many before you and just try a few different amps and work out if the issue that makes you want to change your system is indeed your amp.

Dunno. My friends tell me that my AVR won't do my speakers justice. They tell me that AVR's are pretty weak sauce in the power department and that buying a power amp will make a worthwhile difference. So I figure why not? But before I embark down that road I felt it was prudent to ask questions, just to be on the safe side.

That amps can sound so different is the fascinating thing. It's hard in the audition process at times to go beyond and start to also identify the pattern around the fundamentally different basic types of amps but as they often have shared characteristic traits getting a sense of the advantages and constraints of each amp type is helpful.

I auditioned a few amps at my local dealer the other day. I heard big differences but it later turns out he never swapped between amps. Dunno if that was intentional or if it was a mistake, but I felt embarrassed about it.
 
^^ John Curl and Nelson Pass have a lot to say about distortion signatures in amplifiers and why some sound like music and others do not.

For example its been known since the 1930s that the 7th harmonic imparts a metallic edge or tonality to the sound. It also happens that our ears are tuned to use the 7th and other higher ordered harmonics to sort out how loud a sound is (so I call such harmonics whether natural or the result of distortion 'loudness cues'). This is why the ear is so sensitive to the presence of these harmonics, and why small changes in design can result in pretty audible differences while the bench measurements (which are not very good at detecting the higher ordered harmonics in a very useful way at this point) might not look very different at all.

Its a fact that tube amplifiers are less prone to the higher ordered harmonics, so its more likely that a tube amp won't sound bright, but the simple fact is this topic has nothing to do with tube/solid state and everything to do with design. In addition, with the current state of affairs, the bench specs on paper are still pretty much a good example of the Emperor's New Clothes. What this means is that 60 years on after the basis of many of the bench tests were introduced, we still have to audition the result- IOW you can't tell what it sounds like from the spec sheet, which is why its such a good example of the Emperor's New Clothes.

The Wild West of audio auditioning has now gone on longer than the Wild West itself!

80 foot long cable runs are rather unusual for domestic audio.
Keith.

They certainly are! The point of this test is to demonstrate that longer speaker cables do indeed interfere with resolution.
 
Cables with 'normal' parmeters are essentially completely transparent over the distances used in domestic audio, I would have thought two solid state amps with similar specs would be indistinguishable .
Keith.

well you thought wrong keith;)

i just swapped out some ultra pure copper speaker jumper cables with some of davec gold silver and that changes sound too.... maybe i am a loony tune:eek:
 
Ahh.. that ugly word "loony" rears its head.
Trotted out at every opportunity
I think you need to rein in your use of the word and check before you go galloping off champing at the bit , foaming at the mouth
Those that know their oats will assure you , in the mane , that loony is just a nose behind insane....
 
Ahh.. that ugly word "loony" rears its head.
Trotted out at every opportunity
I think you need to rein in your use of the word and check before you go galloping off champing at the bit , foaming at the mouth
Those that know their oats will assure you , in the mane , that loony is just a nose behind insane....
steady on cowboy i was referring to myself, in keith eye what i posted renders me a audioloon... i was just having fun with that, at my own expense.

great pun count.. roders !

oh and the foaming at the mouth is not a problem as long as i stay on my meds.
 
Amps with similar specs sound the same? Who says that? Must read into it to learn more. Thanks for your informative post.



Dunno. My friends tell me that my AVR won't do my speakers justice. They tell me that AVR's are pretty weak sauce in the power department and that buying a power amp will make a worthwhile difference. So I figure why not? But before I embark down that road I felt it was prudent to ask questions, just to be on the safe side.



I auditioned a few amps at my local dealer the other day. I heard big differences but it later turns out he never swapped between amps. Dunno if that was intentional or if it was a mistake, but I felt embarrassed about it.

No worries Jacob, I was just encouraging you to feel confident about using research, analysis and experience to get the best outcome and just thought you were new and open to all this but thankfully you seem to actually be comfortable and developed in terms of your own specific approach and also being quite strategic in the direction you are taking.

Nice segue into the anecdote on expectation bias btw but never feel bad, everybody, full on subjectivists and objectivists and all of us in the middle are potentially open to it... but by being aware of it and putting it into perspective it can help us to factor it in and minimise the risks associated with it through diversity of experience and spending greater time it can help validate your experience with something. Expectation isn't the cause of everything or we'd be in trouble and life would just be a complete illusion.

So I'm real and I would figure that you are also someone that is also real so if we are honest and fair with ourselves and aim for transparency then we can all use observation as a starting point in the conscious understanding of our experience of anything.

So if you want to buy a new amp I'm obviously open and enthusiasiastic about encouraging you to try and use a good mix of objective and subjective assessment in most things and assumed it is probably just overhang from my day job teaching design and probably way to much time spent in training in assessment strategy.

A big part of what I do is in helping designers learn how to use both subjective and objective evaluation to help define the character of landscape space much in the same way you can use both definable context and our experience of it to have a more whole way of describing and defining art, architecture and music. For me using both objective and subjective assessment is just pretty much second nature and in reality what most people do everyday in some measure. I do believe it is ultimately the more valid and holistic approach to assessing anything.

But in fairness Jacob, I noticed Amir mention that he has also taught for many many years and his position on the value of subjective assessment is also quite clear so as always we all have our own POV and need to respect that... we all have to find our own way to get there in the end.

Ps also wasn't really suggesting you just hang in there with your current amp but since I haven't heard it or checked up on any specs I'd thought I'd also go devils advocate and ask first if you were happy with how things sound before you did anything expensive.
 
steady on cowboy i was referring to myself, in keith eye what i posted renders me a audioloon... i was just having fun with that, at my own expense.

great pun count.. roders !

oh and the foaming at the mouth is not a problem as long as i stay on my meds.

Hearing voices makes you a loony. Hearing dramatic differences between cables, or very similar amplifiers? That's just human.

Tim
 

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