Will power amps make an audible difference?

[Atmasphere]

^^ or not, the issue is if they can behave like a voltage source then the FR will be unchanged.

They might sound like the FR has changed on account of the distortion signature is different (the most common example being 'not as bright'). The ear/brain system has tipping points and often favors tonality induced by distortion over actual FR errors.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I have had the same experience. The better equipment allows me to hear it for the first time, if I go back to the inferior kit its still there simply because I know what I am listening for then. The inferior kit never portrayed it clearly enough to draw my attention to it. When I've used the more transparent equipment to play back a recording then I can certainly go back and listen on the lesser system and pick out the details I heard.

A deft rationale.

Tim

 

[thedudeabides]

I totally agree with Tim.

Audition the Emotiva as a comparison.

Reinstall your Onkyo.

If the sound is reasonably close to the same and you are happy with the experience. End of story.

Buy some music and enjoy listening.

Lots of neurosis, what if speculation in this hobby.

PS: Reputable internet dealers such as Audio Advisors and Music Direct offer 30 to 60 day audition / money back guarantees. There are others.

 

[RayDunzl]

I dont think the expense will be worth it ..I would spend the money on some sort of digital room correction rather than a more potent amp .. you will get 10x the return

His receiver has some:

TX-NR838 7.2-Ch Dolby Atmos Ready Network A/V Receiver

AccuEQ Room Calibration

 

[KeithR]

funny - I gave this thread 24 hours before I figured it would become a mess. right on target

 

[Gregadd]

The bigger the difference the less influence bias has.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The bigger the difference the less influence bias has.

This is correct. You don't have to imagine a differences between speakers, analog sources or recordings; those differences are obvious. Bias moves in when we're counting the angels on the head of a pin. It can make us imagine the angles are huge. It can makes imagine angels that aren't there.

Tim

 

[DaveyF]

So I have an Onkyo NR838 receiver. Thinking of adding an Emotiva XPA-5, lots more current available. I'm sure this will make the speakers sing.

Jacob, I use an Onkyo NR818 Receiver in my home theater set-up. I also use multiple B&W speakers ( similar to yours) that are fairly inefficient. The amp section of the Onkyo has enough drive to push the speakers ( to enough volume without audible distortion)...along with a powered sub that I also utilize ( The sub is not being directly driven by the AVR, it has its own built in amp). IF, you are talking of a surround sound set-up, like mine, then a single stereo amp is NOT what you would need! OTOH, IF you are talking about a stereo set up, then I believe you would get a much bigger bank for the buck by replacing the AVR with a good integrated stereo amp..or better still separates. If separates, then focus on the preamp as the main factor ( for SQ) and the amp as having enough power to drive the speakers in the room size that you have...and to a level that you feel is comfortable.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob, I use an Onkyo NR818 Receiver in my home theater set-up. I also use multiple B&W speakers ( similar to yours) that are fairly inefficient. The amp section of the Onkyo has enough drive to push the speakers ( to enough volume without audible distortion)...along with a powered sub that I also utilize ( The sub is not being directly driven by the AVR, it has its own built in amp). IF, you are talking of a surround sound set-up, like mine, then a single stereo amp is NOT what you would need! OTOH, IF you are talking about a stereo set up, then I believe you would get a much bigger bank for the buck by replacing the AVR with a good integrated stereo amp..or better still separates. If separates, then focus on the preamp as the main factor ( for SQ) and the amp as having enough power to drive the speakers in the room size that you have...and to a level that you feel is comfortable.

Are you suggesting the stereo amp will handle music better than the AVR? Never thought about that. Always wondered how that work. The amp circuitry knows to handle music better than the AVR since the AVR is supposed to handle movie signals. Vice versa.. Only reason I haven't bought a stereo amp is because I need features like Wifi, and internet ratio and especially Zone 2 audio. Love those features.

If I were to change then I guess I'll need a compelling reason to think a stereo amp will handle music better than the AVR. Any compelling reason?

 

[Jacob]

A couple of things to beware are expectation bias, the expectation that a change will be an improvement can cause us to hear an improvement not really there (or at least not significant), and that different amplifiers may have different gain structure. The latter can be insidious as the temptation to turn up the volume on a new piece of gear can lead to a false conclusion of better sound. A very slight increase in loudness, either due to slightly more gain or a slight bump in volume control, will normally make the louder component sound better. As for expectation bias, we all want our new toy to sound better, and sometimes something we want gets translated to something we need based upon desire.

I lost count decades ago of the times I thought I heard something new in a recording after getting a new piece of gear, only to go back to the old and discover it was there all the time. But, every now and then, something really is better. Or sometimes worse.

IMO - Don

So you are saying that a different amp with a different gain structure may be the reason why it sounds different or better when in actual fact the volumes have just changed at different points along the volume pot? Never about that! So when people are saying the amps sound warmer, or more exciting, all that's happening is the volumes are being compared differently?

I've heard of expectation bias. Thing that I don't understand about expectation bias is that it's worked the opposite way for me - I look forward to auditioning, wanting to spend more money, reading reviews etc, ready to pounce and then ... I find the sound is left wanting. Maybe it works both ways or in ways I don't full comprehend. Audio is strange business for sure.

 

[DaveyF]

Jacob, the amp section of your Onkyo, IMHO really isn't that great a piece--but neither is the preamp section. You have to remember that the Onkyo is designed as a home theater piece, first and foremost. In that role, it is a very fine piece indeed,,,,for the price. The sound you are going to get in a stereo set up- IME, comes greatly from the following..a) source, b) preamp then c) amp(s) and lastly d) speakers....and of course the ancillary gear needed to tie them all together...( cables etc). Oh, and don't forget your lowly room!! ( This can have, and usually does have the biggest impact of all...but that leads to another discussion).
If you need features like Wifi and internet connectivity, then that has to be handled by the source....which is why a lot of people use computers and/or servers in that role.
I suggest a different talk with your dealer..hopefully a high-end dealer; a talk that revolves around your wish for superior SQ in your STEREO system.

 

[Gregadd]

Check your AVR rear panel. It may have a "jumper" that allows you to use all the features of your AVR with a basic amp. Multi-channel amps are available should your needs require it.

 

[BlueFox]

Jacob, the amp section of your Onkyo, IMHO really isn't that great a piece--but neither is the preamp section. You have to remember that the Onkyo is designed as a home theater piece, first and foremost. In that role, it is a very fine piece indeed,,,,for the price. The sound you are going to get in a stereo set up- IME, comes greatly from the following..a) source, b) preamp then c) amp(s) and lastly d) speakers....and of course the ancillary gear needed to tie them all together...( cables etc). Oh, and don't forget your lowly room!! ( This can have, and usually does have the biggest impact of all...but that leads to another discussion).
If you need features like Wifi and internet connectivity, then that has to be handled by the source....which is why a lot of people use computers and/or servers in that role.
I suggest a different talk with your dealer..hopefully a high-end dealer; a talk that revolves around your wish for superior SQ in your STEREO system.

First bit of good advice in this thread.

Yes, a separate power amp will improve the sound quality, assuming it actually has power. When I started using a power amp for the HT (Sunfire TGA-5400), and the AVR as a pre/pro the improvement was outstanding. Over the years I went to a separate pre/pro, amp for left front, amp for right front, Sunfire for center and rear, better interconnects, and better speaker cables, and the sound quality is approaching the two channel system.

 

[spazmatron]

Jacob, the amp section of your Onkyo, IMHO really isn't that great a piece--but neither is the preamp section. You have to remember that the Onkyo is designed as a home theater piece, first and foremost. In that role, it is a very fine piece indeed,,,,for the price. The sound you are going to get in a stereo set up- IME, comes greatly from the following..a) source, b) preamp then c) amp(s) and lastly d) speakers....and of course the ancillary gear needed to tie them all together...( cables etc). Oh, and don't forget your lowly room!! ( This can have, and usually does have the biggest impact of all...but that leads to another discussion).
If you need features like Wifi and internet connectivity, then that has to be handled by the source....which is why a lot of people use computers and/or servers in that role.
I suggest a different talk with your dealer..hopefully a high-end dealer; a talk that revolves around your wish for superior SQ in your STEREO system.

thanks DaveyF for one of the few useful post on the thread ( in terms of relevant advice the guy needs and asked for ).

i have been down this road, AV all in one, 'should i bolt on separate amps?' i did it and it was a waste of time. the preamp section was not up to the task. its like having a powerful engine but crap gear box, better off getting a integrated amp. i went and got a Krell KAV 300i it has a theater bypass and keeps its value on the second hand market. that was years ago now but along with my early quad its what got me into hifi.

the guy has ambition for better sound, that's cool but the best way is to go out and buy some modest stuff second hand and learn what does what imo rather than worry about what your mates think or some random guys on the internet think. its that thought ' i want better sound.. can i have better sound' that kind of never goes away, you have to buy listen and learn what you like, formulate your own opinions as others peoples tend to never satisfy. (often they are more likely to confuse you as they all contradict each other but each guy swears blind they are right... welcome to WBF lol)

have fun!

 

[Jacob]

First bit of good advice in this thread.

Yes, a separate power amp will improve the sound quality, assuming it actually has power. When I started using a power amp for the HT (Sunfire TGA-5400), and the AVR as a pre/pro the improvement was outstanding. Over the years I went to a separate pre/pro, amp for left front, amp for right front, Sunfire for center and rear, better interconnects, and better speaker cables, and the sound quality is approaching the two channel system.

Would you say that more power will improve sound quality even at lower volumes?

 

[BlueFox]

Would you say that more power will improve sound quality even at lower volumes?

Yes. That is the whole point. It is not to play louder, but to provide more detail and be clearer. Of course it can be louder when needed with no distortion.

 

[DonH50]

So you are saying that a different amp with a different gain structure may be the reason why it sounds different or better when in actual fact the volumes have just changed at different points along the volume pot? Never about that! So when people are saying the amps sound warmer, or more exciting, all that's happening is the volumes are being compared differently?

I've heard of expectation bias. Thing that I don't understand about expectation bias is that it's worked the opposite way for me - I look forward to auditioning, wanting to spend more money, reading reviews etc, ready to pounce and then ... I find the sound is left wanting. Maybe it works both ways or in ways I don't full comprehend. Audio is strange business for sure.

The important words are "may be". Most SS amps driving most speakers sound very similar if not identical (the rarefied strata of WBF amps and speakers excepted, of course). "Warmer" and "exciting" could be lots of things and I don't pretend to know what others hear when they use those terms. I would not say all that's changed is volume; there are many other parameters in amplifiers that influence the sound. However, loudness plays a critical role when testing components. With music playing you'd be hard-pressed to tell a 1 dB change in volume, probably could not if you walked out of the room and back in between the change. In contrast, a 0.1 dB difference in gain is pretty reliably detected in an A-B test. That said, most people do not level match or A-B their components; they pull out the old, plug in the new, and listen for changes. That is where expectation can play a large role. And yeah it can go either way.

The only way for you to tell is to plug an amp in your system and see if you like it. If you like the sound now, the best thing to do is to slowly back away from the computer, ignore the babbling from us and your friends, and focus on the music (movies, whatever). IME most people who buy big power amps don't need them when we are talking about fairly conventional systems and rooms.

All IMMO (in my minority opinion) - Don

 

[Jacob]

Yes. That is the whole point. It is not to play louder, but to provide more detail and be clearer. Of course it can be louder when needed with no distortion.

I don't doubt you, but how would that work? Wouldn't lower volumes need less power anyway? Or does having more reserve power than normal make the speaker sound different even if isn't used? Correct me I'm understanding this wrong but you're saying unused power will make the speaker sound better at lower volumes? Just trying to understand you.

 

[Atmasphere]

Would you say that more power will improve sound quality even at lower volumes?

Actually, no.

Here is the problem: any amplifier that makes serious power is push-pull. Nearly all such amps (with a very few exceptions) have a distortion character such that the distortion decreases as power is decreased down to a certain point, below which the distortion is increasing, sometimes rapidly. It happens that low level detail exists at lower power levels; if you have an amplifier that is rarely operating above this knee in the distortion curve the result is that low level detail will be obscured. That is why it is useful to have a certain amount of matching between the power level the amp is capable of and the amount of power you will need for a given speaker in a given room.

BTW this distortion character is shared by nearly all solid state, class D and most tube amps. You can see it in the specs easily enough if the distortion curve is on a graph.

 

[Jacob]

Actually, no.

Here is the problem: any amplifier that makes serious power is push-pull. Nearly all such amps (with a very few exceptions) have a distortion character such that the distortion decreases as power is decreased down to a certain point, below which the distortion is increasing, sometimes rapidly. It happens that low level detail exists at lower power levels; if you have an amplifier that is rarely operating above this knee in the distortion curve the result is that low level detail will be obscured. That is why it is useful to have a certain amount of matching between the power level the amp is capable of and the amount of power you will need for a given speaker in a given room.

BTW this distortion character is shared by nearly all solid state, class D and most tube amps. You can see it in the specs easily enough if the distortion curve is on a graph.

I'm confused. So more power at lower volumes won't improve sound but another guy is saying it will result in clearer sound and more detail. At lower volumes. I'm just in the middle here, so I'm not sure who is correct here.