Will power amps make an audible difference?
- Thread starter Jacob
- Start date
I'd say yes. Even below 2mph
Jacob I haven't gone through the entire thread so I'll try and comment when I have.
I dont think the expense will be worth it ..I would spend the money on some sort of digital room correction rather than a more potent amp .. you will get 10x the return
As a specific requirement, no you dont, however it is a reasonable indication that the power supply and circuit are more likely to be able to cope with more awkward loads. Its not an unreasonable rule of thumb.
The amp will only supply the required current so long as the PSU voltage and signal voltage dont collapse. A multi channel AV amp that runs from a single PSU provides less power with all channels driven as an example.
More power does not always equal better sound. Here is one example. A few years back I owned McIntosh 1.2k's driving MBL 111F's. I thought the sound was very good so when my dealer asked if I would like to demo the D'Agostino Momentum amps I initially declined as I had no desire to pay that much for amps besides the Mac were rated at 1200wpc versus 300 for the Momentums.
Finally one day I decided to avail myself of the opportunity to A/B them in my room. I have attached a photo below. I swapped out the interconnects and power cords powered up the Momentums and thought "oh crap". The Momentums had so much better control of the MBL's that I thought the 1.2k's must have been wired up incorrectly all along. I disconnected everything and reconnected the 1.2k's and made sure all connections were correct. There was no contest the Momentum's at 300wpc were a much better amp when asked to drive the moderately difficult load of the MBL's.
That'a exactly what I'm saying. Are there audible differences between amps? Sure. But unless one of the amps being compared is doing something wrong, the differences are very, very...let's add another...very small. And the Onkyo isn't doing anything wrong. What can make a significant difference is power, particularly when listening at high volume, if one of the amps being compared simply doesn't have enough power to drive your speakers at peaks. Your Onkyo is, I believe, 160 watts RMS, 2 channels driven, into 8 ohms? What are the power requirements of your speakers? That's what you need to know. And I doubt there's a problem. I used to sell this stuff, and of all the AV receiver brands we had Onkyos were the best at driving difficult speaker loads. And they were a good match for B&Ws' bright tweeters, because they were a bit on the warm side compared to, say, Pioneer Elites or Yamahas (which are also very good stuff near the top of their lines). And that difference? I doubt anyone who hadn't listened to all the brands, matched to many different speakers, day in and day out would ever notice.
Places like this are pools of doubt, Jacob. They are breeders of great, painful bubbles of GAS (gear acquisition syndrome). There are people here who believe that buying good quality equipment that has been engineered to work well with other good quality equipment won't even deliver decent sound. They seek "synergy," an amorphous, undefinable marriage of components to create a magic unsupported by and unverified by science and engineering, that can only be achieved (allegedly) through experimentation and long-term listening. They, buy, sell, trade and talk about it all the time. They speak of achieving beautiful "synergy," then a few months later they're trying something else. That is their hobby -- the gear -- they've spent small fortunes seeking something that they continue to seek, at ever-rising costs. If that's not your hobby, if your hobby is listening to great music, spend your money on more of it, go listen to it, and doubt no more.
But don't take my word for it. Doesn't Emotiva offer a 30 day return? Buy an amp. Hook it up. Listen the way your normal listen, to the music you normally listen to, at the volume you normally listen at, for 10 days, then switch back to the Onkyo and give it 10 days. My guess is you'll be packing the Emotiva and sending it back, and considering any shipping cost a great investment (are you an Amazon Prime user? No shipping costs
). But if I'm wrong, you will have demonstrated to yourself that you are getting better sound, instead of listening to the speculation of your buddies and the obsessive-compulsive audiophiles of the online community.Tim
Oh, and Jacob? This. And when you're listening to stereo, make sure only 2 channels of your Onkyo are driven. That part is important.
Tim
That'a exactly what I'm saying. Are there audible differences between amps? Sure. But unless one of the amps being compared is doing something wrong, the differences are very, very...let's add another...very small. And the Onkyo isn't doing anything wrong. What can make a significant difference is power, particularly when listening at high volume, if one of the amps being compared simply doesn't have enough power to drive your speakers at peaks. Your Onkyo is, I believe, 160 watts RMS, 2 channels driven, into 8 ohms? What are the power requirements of your speakers? That's what you need to know. And I doubt there's a problem. I used to sell this stuff, and of all the AV receiver brands we had Onkyos were the best at driving difficult speaker loads. And they were a good match for B&Ws' bright tweeters, because they were a bit on the warm side compared to, say, Pioneer Elites or Yamahas (which are also very good stuff near the top of their lines). And that difference? I doubt anyone who hadn't listened to all the brands, matched to many different speakers, day in and day out would ever notice.
Places like this are pools of doubt, Jacob. They are breeders of great, painful bubbles of GAS (gear acquisition syndrome). There are people here who believe that buying good quality equipment that has been engineered to work well with other good quality equipment won't even deliver decent sound. They seek "synergy," an amorphous, undefinable marriage of components to create a magic unsupported by and unverified by science and engineering, that can only be achieved (allegedly) through experimentation and long-term listening. They, buy, sell, trade and talk about it all the time. They speak of achieving beautiful "synergy," then a few months later they're trying something else. That is their hobby -- the gear -- they've spent small fortunes seeking something that they continue to seek, at ever-rising costs. If that's not your hobby, if your hobby is listening to great music, spend your money on more of it, go listen to it, and doubt no more.
But don't take my word for it. Doesn't Emotiva offer a 30 day return? Buy an amp. Hook it up. Listen the way your normal listen, to the music you normally listen to, at the volume you normally listen at, for 10 days, then switch back to the Onkyo and give it 10 days. My guess is you'll be packing the Emotiva and sending it back, and considering any shipping cost a great investment (are you an Amazon Prime user? No shipping costs
Tim
Wow, thank you for reply! Lots of information to digest. So synergy is not actually a real thing? I thought amps and speakers and combinations resulted in different synergies, but based on what you've said and correct me if I'm wrong, it's just BS?
For someone like me who reads reviews, listens to other audiophiles and their experiences it's difficult to separate truth from fiction because I don't really know what is truth. I don't know if adding a power amp is worthwhile, but everyone person I've spoken to seems to have a different opinion. It's confusing.
I don't really feel there is anything wrong with the sound in my system. Guess I was pulled into the idea that my system could be made to sound better if I purchase a bigger amp. I don't want to waste Emotiva's time by purchasing and then returning if it doesn't satisfy me. That wouldn't be right to Emotiva.
I think what I'll do is borrow a power amp from a friend and see if that does anything for me and take it from there. Lots of really good info and if anything I'm really out of my depth here. Thanks again for the informative and detailed response!
The question is do amplifiers make a difference. The unequivocal answer to that question is yes. Now it goes without saying you may not experience a difference with any given amp being replaced by another amp. In fact i think it may be the single most important component. Fortunately it is not the most difficult to get right. How you are going to approach things is your choice. Are you trying to cure a problem? Do you have an unspecified dissatisfaction with your system?Or are you just a hobbyist wanting to do something different? All equally legitimate.
Most if not all dealers want you to be satisfied. They will at least give you store credit if not an outright refund. Nail down the policy before you buy. Some still loan equipment.The usually lend on Saturday night and you return by Tuesday. There is no need to get bogged down in any audiophile philosophy.
Here is my choice. Nice return policy.
http://www.moscode.com/purchase.htm
Most if not all dealers want you to be satisfied. They will at least give you store credit if not an outright refund. Nail down the policy before you buy. Some still loan equipment.The usually lend on Saturday night and you return by Tuesday. There is no need to get bogged down in any audiophile philosophy.
Here is my choice. Nice return policy.
http://www.moscode.com/purchase.htm
FWIW, not everybody would agree with Tim's stance here, or at the very least perhaps not to the degree stated. A quick look around the forum will reveal many different viewpoints on these and other questions, to put it mildly. Please note, I'm not saying that Tim is wrong, far from it, but he doesn't necessarily represent a wider viewpoint. Tread carefully and judiciously.
Personally, I think power amps make a difference, but I certainly don't subscribe to the view that more power = better. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes a valve amp will give a different flavour to the sound that you might find appealing. Sometimes even amps that look similar on paper actually sound a little different in real life (to my ears) and that difference is sometimes worthwhile for me. I'm a firm believer in reading as much as you can, hearing as much as you can, but then letting your own ears be the final arbiter. Try to be aware of the effects of expectation bias, read about what happens when you don't match levels in comparisons, but most of all don't buy or reject a product because somebody else thinks you should. And for goodness sake don't believe everything you read on forums, on either side of the fence.
All that said:
Then stop here. Seriously. If you're happy with the sound of your system, don't get sucked down the rabbit-hole. Listen to it, enjoy it, step away from the madness!
Personally, I think power amps make a difference, but I certainly don't subscribe to the view that more power = better. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes a valve amp will give a different flavour to the sound that you might find appealing. Sometimes even amps that look similar on paper actually sound a little different in real life (to my ears) and that difference is sometimes worthwhile for me. I'm a firm believer in reading as much as you can, hearing as much as you can, but then letting your own ears be the final arbiter. Try to be aware of the effects of expectation bias, read about what happens when you don't match levels in comparisons, but most of all don't buy or reject a product because somebody else thinks you should. And for goodness sake don't believe everything you read on forums, on either side of the fence.
All that said:
Then stop here. Seriously. If you're happy with the sound of your system, don't get sucked down the rabbit-hole. Listen to it, enjoy it, step away from the madness!
I wouldn't call it BS, Jacob, but most of it is meaningless if you're buying mainstream audio equipment from large, established manufacturers. If you get into some vintage engineering and esoteric stuff - all audiophile boutique brands - you may have more careful matching to do, but if you're looking at Onkyo, Emotiva...anything at the high end of what folks around here call midi and anything from the pro side, they make it their business to make equipment that plays well with others. When matching amps with speakers, you need to make sure the power is more than enough for the load. IMHO, headroom - more power than you need - will make a greater difference in the performance of an amp than almost anything else. And it's all improvement.
Yes, it is.
Than I'd say you don't need to change your system. Unless you enjoy trying different components and cables, and are willing to spend a lot of money doing it. That's a different question; that's a different hobby.
That sounds like a good plan.
Tim
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A couple of things to beware are expectation bias, the expectation that a change will be an improvement can cause us to hear an improvement not really there (or at least not significant), and that different amplifiers may have different gain structure. The latter can be insidious as the temptation to turn up the volume on a new piece of gear can lead to a false conclusion of better sound. A very slight increase in loudness, either due to slightly more gain or a slight bump in volume control, will normally make the louder component sound better. As for expectation bias, we all want our new toy to sound better, and sometimes something we want gets translated to something we need based upon desire.
I lost count decades ago of the times I thought I heard something new in a recording after getting a new piece of gear, only to go back to the old and discover it was there all the time. But, every now and then, something really is better. Or sometimes worse.
IMO - Don
I have had the same experience. The better equipment allows me to hear it for the first time, if I go back to the inferior kit its still there simply because I know what I am listening for then. The inferior kit never portrayed it clearly enough to draw my attention to it. When I've used the more transparent equipment to play back a recording then I can certainly go back and listen on the lesser system and pick out the details I heard.
Valve amps with their high output impedance may actually be changing the FR of the loudspeakers, which could easily spotlight something which was previously more recessed.
Keth
Keth
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