You don't always get what you pay for

[JackD201]

Damage compared to what solid state?

 

[Bill Hart]

valkyrie- although the car analogy only goes so far, Ferraris are not unreliable, i have owned a number of them. The reason why you don't see many on the highways is twofold: relative to other marques, there just aren't that many, even with the increased production since the 1990's and they aren't really just 'transportation' in the prosaic sense, so anyone who is just commuting or driving to get from spot A to spot B is unlikely to use the car, rather than something else. To be sure, the 4 seaters are comfortable autobahn cruisers, and the 12 cylinder 2 seaters are equally fine for highway driving. The smaller 8 cylinder cars are a little more 'boy racer' and would get tiresome on the highway. (These days, though, with paddle shifting in virtually all of them, it's even less of an issue). I used to drive mine everywhere. To the city, from my house (then in Westchester, on a spur of the moment 'let's take a drive' to Florida one dreary winter morning; all along the PCH route 1, from Carmel to LA, etc.). The engine out service is just part of the package- maintenance is expensive, but it has little to do with reliabilty, it's a belt service that's part of the planned service interval and if you buy the car, you know you need to do it, no different than having to spend money on tube complements.
Just sayin...

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Damage compared to what solid state?

Damage compared to over-complicating digital to analog conversion with a bunch of noise- and distortion-generating stuff it doesn't need to convert and get the output up to the appropriate line level. SS or tube, though I think we all know that as a general rule, tubes generate more noise and distortion than even a simple, high quality op amp. Deciding we like it doesn't change that. I just think, personally, that kind of preference belongs somewhere...anywhere other than the source. YMMV.

Tim

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Not a Tube person anymore but I would like to interject a little bit. Tubes are not inherently non-linear. The Interface (Transformer, RC network, etc)between the usually high impedance or high Voltage tubes output stage and the (relatively ) low impedance of speakers is the source of many of the tubes "problems" .. In instances where the tubes don't have to drive such a low impedance load they can work extremely well with minimal amount of distortion before negative feedback and extreme inearity, within this range they can be as linear as solid state maybe noisier but as linear in term of pure amplification.
SO the presence of a tube in a DAC (or any component ) should't automatically disqualify it as an euphony generator. I don't use a DAC with a tube but I am using for my headphones listening: the HiFIMan EF5 and this is a marvelous headphone amplifier. It drives the HiFiman HE500 extremely well something I would not have suspected since the HE500 seems to require at least 3 watts of serious SS amplification in my experience.

 

[JackD201]

^

What he said.

There are tubed DACs that are dogs and there are SS Dacs that are dogs too. The Zanden is NOT one of them.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

^

What he said.

There are tubed DACs that are dogs and there are SS Dacs that are dogs too. The Zanden is NOT one of them.

I'm sure you can make a tube-output DAC that works well. It is not impossible. It is unnecessary. Unnecessarily, expensive, complicated, hot, noisy and power-hungry. I can't think of a single good reason to put a tube in the output stage of a DAC unless you want the color it provides. But I'm sure I could be wrong.

Tim

 

[andromedaaudio]

Tim have you ever heard a zanden player or a ARC player ?

Yes, if you put enough money into it, you can minimize the damage of a tube in a DAC. That doesn't make it a fundamentally good idea, just a good marketing idea.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

I have the Audio Research CD8 - it has four 6h30 tubes in the ouput. Close to it I now temporally have a Nagra CDP. Both show state of the art measurements but they sound very different. IMHO the CD8 sounds much better in my system - more air, greater dynamics and a wider and deeper soundstage. The Nagra has a more controlled bass and presents the details in a more explicit way. In a short time listening I could prefer the Nagra, but on the long term I always choose the Audio Research. My preamplifier is also from ARC, surely it will influence my preference.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim have you ever heard a zanden player or a ARC player ?

Nope. Can you name a single quantifiable reason to put a tube output stage in a DAC?

Tim

 

[theguesswho]

I'm surprised Ethan started this thread. Take his own products for instance. I purchased some Diffusors from him to put in my studio. I got them and opened the box. WTF?? These are made from cheap thin gauge metal (ring!!) and FOAM BOARD??? come on now..... over $600 EACH! I couldn't get rid of them fast enough.... got RPG diffusors made of real maple instead.... the only wood on Ethan's diffusors are a thin strip in the middle keeping them from falling apart! I can give him props though for taking them back with no questions asked. Cost me in shipping though.

HI Bruce, I see how much your disrespect for Ethan and his products has helped you!
Let see, you spent $50,000 for speakers and a $50,000 room with little results, congratulations! YOU DON'T ALWAYS GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR! With a REW result like this View attachment 4623, I can see how how you can be so smug???!!! WTF!!!

Did you ever find your last 1-3%. Dont worry about it, you will not find it! Nor the last 10-20%. Because you dont even know what you are looking for.

As you can see I am not happy with your comment on Ethan and his products. I can also see why he left this "forward thinking" forum! And I am sure he will most likely leave it again, as will I, leave it.

Real Maple! Wow that means alot! Ringing from the metal? Really? You don't have any other metal in your room to ring?

Don't you think that a 25db variance in your room response is more detrimental to your sound than a metal frame?

You said "The experts can chime in anytime now?? HELP! " Yeah good luck that now that you dissed the real expert!

You said "Thanks... the ultimate goal is to have as flat of response as I can below 1k by just using good positioning techniques and speaker controls without having to resort to outboard digital or analog EQ"

I say how did you do? No, dont tell me.... like crap.


You said, "I'm trying to learn all I can about room acoustics and how to fix problems."
I say no you are not, you are just interested in your own opinions which you are unable to deviate from.

You said "This is an acoustically designed room. Over a third of the cubic volume is bass trapping."
I say is this the "new math" we were promised in the 1960s?

You said "I never really "listened" to what the controls did. I was wearing ear protection. I can post a couple of graphs going out to 5k this evening. "
I say you really should start using your ears.

You said " but I don't think much can be garnered with test tones. "
I say then why bother with REW?

Good luck,
JDR

 

[Perfect sense Audio]

My feelings exactly. Audio Note does have a magic way of bringing recorded music to life. Few components and systems has proven to connect me to the music in the same way.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Nope, but after i heard the zanden/audio research playing ,i can understand why

Nope. Can you name a single quantifiable reason to put a tube output stage in a DAC?

Tim

 

[microstrip]

Nope. Can you name a single quantifiable reason to put a tube output stage in a DAC?

Tim

Tim,

No. But I also do not have quantifiable reasons to justify almost all my audio options.

I would love to know about any one choosing his audio system exclusively using quantifiable reasons.

 

[Sonus]

My feelings exactly. Audio Note does have a magic way of bringing recorded music to life. Few components and systems has proven to connect me to the music in the same way.

+1

I will never understand people rejecting components that they have never heard in their own system.
Rejecting an audio component because of its price or design topology is just arrogant in my book.

 

[Bruce B]

HI Bruce, I see how much your disrespect for Ethan and his products has helped you!
Let see, you spent $50,000 for speakers and a $50,000 room with little results, congratulations! YOU DON'T ALWAYS GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR! With a REW result like this View attachment 4623, I can see how how you can be so smug???!!! WTF!!! Good luck,
JDR

Thank-you....

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,

No. But I also do not have quantifiable reasons to justify almost all my audio options.

I would love to know about any one choosing his audio system exclusively using quantifiable reasons.

I don't think anyone is choosing their system solely for quantifiable reasons. This is not a choice of speakers we're talking about, though. This is a fundamental technology, and an antiquated, unreliable one known for high noise and distortion levels. I'd say the odds are very good that Zanden uses a tube output stage not because of sound engineering, but because they like the way it sounds. In fact, I'd bet it takes a fair amount of design and engineering (and expense) to keep it from causing trouble on its way to making that sound. And there's nothing in the world wrong with that if you like the way it sounds too. But, while YMMV, I don't believe in unmeasurable euphony. I believe it is added harmonic content, which is a really nice way to say distortion. If you like it, good for you. Enjoy. But, and again, MHO, YMMV, etc. I personally don't think it has any business in a source component. There is no quantifiable reason to design a DAC that way, and my belief is that a DAC, more than any other component in a system, should be neutral. So I don't need to hear it. I can rule it out on principle. Even if I suddenly developed a love for tube tone, I'd get it someplace else in the system.

Tim

 

[andromedaaudio]

Good design is a combo of listening versus measurements , cutting 1 of will limit the outcome of the final product .
Design is always a compromise, accepting a couple of flaws versus a major advantage is wise .
Digital and solid sate are certainly not the last word in " reality "

Example: one could argue that ceramic (accuton )material would be the best for membranes of LS , the perfect piston behavior or what ever .
Listening expiriences tells me otherwise for mids and certainly for bass , i think papercomposite for mids which is not the absolute last word in stiffness , adds natural tone colour , while ceramic bass sounds not powerfull and hollow to me .

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Good design is a combo of listening versus measurements , cutting 1 of will limit the outcome of the final product .
Design is always a compromise, accepting a couple of flaws versus a major advantage is wise .
Digital and solid sate are certainly not the last word in " reality "

Example: one could argue that ceramic (accuton )material would be the best for membranes of LS , the perfect piston behavior or what ever .
Listening expiriences tells me otherwise for mids and certainly for bass , i think papercomposite for mids which is not the absolute last word in stiffness , adds natural tone colour , while ceramic bass sounds not powerfull and hollow to me .

We just like different things, andromedaaudio. Simple as that. I've heard valve gear. I've had valve gear. And analogue. I understand that it has a sound that is very attractive to many. To me, it takes me further away from the recording. I hear hifi in the way of the music. MHO. YMMV.

Tim

 

[cjfrbw]

I'm surprised Ethan started this thread. Take his own products for instance. I purchased some Diffusors from him to put in my studio. I got them and opened the box. WTF?? These are made from cheap thin gauge metal (ring!!) and FOAM BOARD??? come on now..... over $600 EACH! I couldn't get rid of them fast enough.... got RPG diffusors made of real maple instead.... the only wood on Ethan's diffusors are a thin strip in the middle keeping them from falling apart! I can give him props though for taking them back with no questions asked. Cost me in shipping though.

You don't always get what you pay for.

But it's great when you are the guy getting paid for it.

 

[Bill Hart]

We just like different things, andromedaaudio. Simple as that. I've heard valve gear. I've had valve gear. And analogue. I understand that it has a sound that is very attractive to many. To me, it takes me further away from the recording. I hear hifi in the way of the music. MHO. YMMV.

Tim

Tim, I'm not asking this in a provocative, or baiting way, but have you heard modern, top grade tube stuff? It is not the tubular stuff of yore, and doesn't have the colorations that you may be associating with tube hi-fi. Some gear judiciously employs tubes in an otherwise modern circuit- for example, my line stage is solid state but uses tubes in the power supply.