You don't always get what you pay for

[cjfrbw]

I would rather take a beating than shop at WalMart. It reminds me of trying to watch one of those hoarding shows on TV, I just can't do it-it's too uncomfortable.

I used to be Walmart phobic for years. The swarming masses gave me agoraphobia, and I thought it would be too depressing. My wife forced me to go get a propane tank.


Walmart is a hoot, and a lot of the stuff is decent. They use their bargaining power to bully even some of the better brand names. I actually go voluntarily a once or twice a year, now.

 

[Bill Hart]

must have been a while ago because I recently read that Rodman doesn't have from busfare to welfare with all of the alimony that he is paying

Yep, I spent all that time in LA from 1995-99.

 

[Bill Hart]

You really can't disable actives and run them as passives. Their crossovers are in the signal path before the amplifiers and they are quite different from passive crossovers. So no, I haven't heard tubes in my own system. I haven't even heard conventional solid state in this system. But I have heard contemporary, high-quality tube amplifiers in other people's systems. I came to actives through headphone systems and it has been a long time since I've listened to....transport>cables>preamp>cables>amps>cables>nest of resistance known as the passive crossover network>drivers...on a daily basis. But I do get out, and I have a few audiophile friends. One has a surround system in which his big Martin Logan hybrids have become the rears (the fronts are now Legends). He drives them with McIntosh SS. Another is an odd horn lover with a pair of highly modified vintage Altecs driven by Carey tube amps (lots of vinyl). This stuff is fun. It'll move some air. A third has Bryston amps and big Vienna Acoustics. Beethoven Grands. This is by far my favorite of these three systems. And I have known a few dealers and have heard a lot of other stuff over the years.

At this point I'm fully acclimated to very high-powered, high-quality actives (without the upper midrange lift common to cheap monitors), and to headphone systems -- Hard drive server, all digital media, minimal cabling, minimal duplicaton of components, no transports, no preamps, no passive crossovers and either headphone or nearfield -- ie: minimal (and dampened) reflected sound. I will qualify this next comment with MHO, YMMV, any other inititals I may need, and the admission that I may very well be the victim of my own methodology -- that I, like so many of us, may simply like what I'm used to - expectation bias and all of that. But the bottom line is that even conventional SS state systems with very good amplification sound, somehow, imprecise to me. The best tubes I've ever heard were even more so, though I will give them a tonality that minimizes the ill effects of passive crossovers where some solid state seems to make the most of it. One more time before I finish -- YMMV, MHO, I'm as susceptible to bias as anyone...but I think you guys are arguing over the tone of your distortions instead of minimizing them. I'm not going back.

My God. I sound like Frank.

Tim

Tim- your candor is refreshing. It's all imprecise, it's what we are striving to improve by increments and better understanding. That's why a variety of views aid in the process.

 

[mep]

Oh, it’s a hoot alright. Why anyone would pay money to go to the freak show at their county fair when they can go to Wal-Mart for free is beyond me. You want to see the bearded goat lady? You can find her at Wal-Mart along with every other odd assortment of humanity. It’s just more than I want to deal with and I don’t have to deal with it. I would rather pay more money and try to keep a small local business in business.

A contrast compared to shopping at Wal-Mart is having to go the ‘alternative’ grocery stores. Ever since my wife was diagnosed with Celiac disease last November, I now have to shop for some gluten-free products at the alternative stores. These stores cater to the modern equivalent of hippies, vegetarians, tree huggers, and people who are allergic to good hygiene. I’m personally not a fan of women who have more armpit hair than I do. All in all, the shoppers at the alternative grocery stores are higher on the evolutionary scale than the average Wal-Mart shopper, but there is still a high degree of wackiness. At least you don’t see people riding around on the electric carts with an axe handle of rear-end hanging off each side of the seat at the alternative grocery stores.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim- your candor is refreshing. It's all imprecise, it's what we are striving to improve by increments and better understanding. That's why a variety of views aid in the process.

Guess I should have said relatively imprecise. Good actives have a precision to them that seems to evade other methods. But I don't want anyone to take my dedication to this path as a blanket condemnation of others, either. That Bryston/Vienna system mentioned above? Damn good system. Sounds great. And like I said, the tubes and horns? Damn good fun. Imprecise, but fun. I just chose another path, and of course I think it is better or I'd be on a different one.

Tim

 

[Bill Hart]

Oh, it’s a hoot alright. Why anyone would pay money to go to the freak show at their county fair when they can go to Wal-Mart for free is beyond me. You want to see the bearded goat lady? You can find her at Wal-Mart along with every other odd assortment of humanity. It’s just more than I want to deal with and I don’t have to deal with it. I would rather pay more money and try to keep a small local business in business.

A contrast compared to shopping at Wal-Mart is having to go the ‘alternative’ grocery stores. Ever since my wife was diagnosed with Celiac disease last November, I now have to shop for some gluten-free products at the alternative stores. These stores cater to the modern equivalent of hippies, vegetarians, tree huggers, and people who are allergic to good hygiene. I’m personally not a fan of women who have more armpit hair than I do. All in all, the shoppers at the alternative grocery stores are higher on the evolutionary scale than the average Wal-Mart shopper, but there is still a high degree of wackiness. At least you don’t see people riding around on the electric carts with an axe handle of rear-end hanging off each side of the seat at the alternative grocery stores.

Mep: I live in the middle of alternate-ville. We have witches, past pet channelers and swamis. Those are the mainstream folks here. Admittedly there are a few weirdos. They wear suits and work in the city.

 

[Steve williams]

Mep: I live in the middle of alternate-ville. We have witches, past pet channelers and swamis. Those are the mainstream folks here. Admittedly there are a few weirdos. They wear suits and work in the city.

some of them we even call lawyers

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Mep: I live in the middle of alternate-ville. We have witches, past pet channelers and swamis. Those are the mainstream folks here. Admittedly there are a few weirdos. They wear suits and work in the city.

You live in Asheville, NC, whart?

Tim

 

[microstrip]

Guess I should have said relatively imprecise. Good actives have a precision to them that seems to evade other methods. But I don't want anyone to take my dedication to this path as a blanket condemnation of others, either. That Bryston/Vienna system mentioned above? Damn good system. Sounds great. And like I said, the tubes and horns? Damn good fun. Imprecise, but fun. I just chose another path, and of course I think it is better or I'd be on a different one.

Tim

Tim,

You are creating a new word that does not figure in any audio lexicon, even Ben Duncan one's - precise and imprecise sound. Is it just a synonym for accurate and non-accurate? Or are you using in the sense of being distinct?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,

You are creating a new word that does not figure in any audio lexicon, even Ben Duncan one's - precise and imprecise sound. Is it just a synonym for accurate and non-accurate? Or are you using in the sense of being distinct?

I know it's not clear. Probably as vague to you as musical is to me. My apoplogies. I'll think about it and try to come up with something more tangible...

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Ok...I'll try this again. This is not all actives. There are far too many of them out there with juiced upper mids emulating "detail," that will just wear you out. But really good actives have a clarity in the midrange, an incredibly quick transient response (I think it's mostly about driver control) a responsiveness and resolution of detail that differentiates and isolates sounds (eliminates unnatural blending) that results in a plethora of "good things." Very precise horizontal imaging, very well-controlled low mids and bass, highly differentiated volume variations (resulting in really good front to back staging), precise, natural (to my ears) attack and decay, and just an excellent presentation of the small stuff on the recordings. The drawbacks are that most actives are monitor-sized speakers (this is also an advantage...another subject) so a sub(s) is required for full range and you may need a couple of pair if you want to throw a huge image into a large space. They are also unforgiving -- the differences between recordings can be stark and truly bad recordings have no place to hide. This last one is easy to address, though. I have some digital eq presets that warm and soften and give me a bit more "system," a bit less recording. But honestly, I don't use them often. You just get used to the fact that some old records are pretty bad, and listen through to the performances. And the really good recordings -- analog or digital -- make it all worthwhile.

Let me add, before anyone goes on defense, yes, you can get this kind of stuff from passive systems, or you can get close enough that it doesn't matter much. But for a lot of reasons that are pretty easy to understand, it is much, much more expensive to do so. There are a lot of inefficiencies in passive systems that you just can't get around, and, as I understand it, a nice little collection of problems which have to be addressed, that active systems bypass altogether. There is quite a bit of information out there, if you're interested, from people who understand it much better than I. But listen first. Take a really well recorded file or CD to your local pro audio store and listen. I think Dynaudios are a good place for audiophiles to get aclimated, as they're on the warm side. You may not like the sound at all. And if that's the case, there's no need to look further.

Tim

 

[Robh3606]

Let me add, before anyone goes on defense, yes, you can get this kind of stuff from passive systems, or you can get close enough that it doesn't matter much. But for a lot of reasons that are pretty easy to understand, it is much, much more expensive to do so. There are a lot of inefficiencies in passive systems that you just can't get around, and, as I understand it, a nice little collection of problems which have to be addressed, that active systems bypass altogether.

Hello Tim

I have built systems that use both active and passive as well as many biamp set-ups. There is no reason at all a passive system can't do it and for a lot less money. Why would you think that a handfull of passive componenets would be more expensive than a pair of amps and an active crossover?? Also remember that all amps and active crossovers are loaded with passive componenets. Many many more than what you would need using a speaker level passive crossover.

Rob

 

[Gregadd]

I'm sure you can make a tube-output DAC that works well. It is not impossible. It is unnecessary. Unnecessarily, expensive, complicated, hot, noisy and power-hungry. I can't think of a single good reason to put a tube in the output stage of a DAC unless you want the color it provides. But I'm sure I could be wrong.

Tim

Faced with the prospect of ear bleeding sound a tube buffer is the preferred option.

 

[Gregadd]

Let's start with the notion:
1. A poor or incompetent design is a bad bargain at any price.
2. A good design that does not address the problem you have is also a poor bargain at any price.
3 A designt that addresses your problem can be a bargain.
4. A product that uses overkill to address your problem is probably not a good bargain.
5. A product that addresse your problem and others that did not require attention is problably not a good bargain.
6 A product that addresses your problem while destroying other aspects or creating new problems is probably not a good bargain.
7. A product that solves your problem but is hidoeusly,expensive, totaly inefficient, or impractical is not a good bargain. This would appear to be simple. As we can see by the OP whether or not the product falls into one or more of these categories is more often than not the subject of irreconcilable opinions.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Hello Tim

I have built systems that use both active and passive as well as many biamp set-ups. There is no reason at all a passive system can't do it and for a lot less money. Why would you think that a handfull of passive componenets would be more expensive than a pair of amps and an active crossover?? Also remember that all amps and active crossovers are loaded with passive componenets. Many many more than what you would need using a speaker level passive crossover.

Rob

I think the keyword there is probably "built," Rob, though I can't know without a lot more detail. Understand that when I now exit the world of what I hear into what I understand is behind what I hear, it's a world where I'm counting very much on what I've read, not what I know from experience. With that said, as I understand it most of the efficiencies come from engineering the system as a unit, inside the speaker cabinet -- no fancy metal boxes, no expensive (or not so expensive) cabling, the elimination of potentiometers, inputs, multiple power supplies, etc. There are arguments against this kind of integration, of course. I can only counter them with the fact that most of excellence is in the design and implementation, not in a broad methodology and, of course, with what I hear.

The ones I own take integration to extremes. Inside the speaker cabinets is DAC and analog output, volume control, crossovers, amplifiers, and drivers. All driven by a single power supply in each cabinet. You simply plug a digital or analog source into one of the speakers, hook it up to the other and control with a remote. An extremely efficient way to design a system. We could argue the methodology all day, but if you came and listened to them I think any doubts about the results would end abruptly.

Tim

 

[andy_c]

To be fair, Atkinson did hammer them on the measurements.

Sure, except he negated that entirely with his closing comment:

Does it sound good because of how it measures, or despite it?

Just goes to show that polishing a turd can be an art form!

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Faced with the prospect of ear bleeding sound a tube buffer is the preferred option.

I prefer ear plugs. I am not a tube-fan nor a tube-enemy but this suggestion is just a hot band-aid.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Faced with the prospect of ear bleeding sound a tube buffer is the preferred option.

The better solution would be to design a good DAC in the first place instead of masking a bad one.

Tim

 

[Peter Breuninger]

Wow. The ultimate hate thread and it is not locked? What gives?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

We changed the subject.

Tim