You don't always get what you pay for

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim, I'm not asking this in a provocative, or baiting way, but have you heard modern, top grade tube stuff? It is not the tubular stuff of yore, and doesn't have the colorations that you may be associating with tube hi-fi. Some gear judiciously employs tubes in an otherwise modern circuit- for example, my line stage is solid state but uses tubes in the power supply.

I have. To my ear, the better it gets, the less it sounds like tube gear. But it still has the heat, the expense, the maintenance issues, etc. And I've yet to hear tube gear that takes control of drivers the way good SS does. Well, almost never. I had a tube headphone amp on loan for a few weeks that was tremendously powerful (500 milliwatts) for the job and matched well to my high-impedance Sennheisers, With no crossovers to push through, it took control of the Senns drivers very well. I really enjoyed listening to it for a couple of weeks, but when I put the old SS mosfet amp back in, the difference between the two was vanishingly small. God it looked cool, though.

Tim

 

[flez007]

I am sadly witnessing some harder lines on some responses lately, not only in this thread but on several others, it is sad because the forum intent is mostly to share experiences, points of view, comments or even one or other joke here and there without no further assumption that we picked one nice hobby - a hobby that keeps our souls closer to mundane things such as cleaning an LP, hunting for a record and listening music in a way that very few people can, music played in above-average audio systems.

I hope we can evenly return to that spirit, learn from others, stay humble and enjoying music...it is nothing more complex than that IMHO.

 

[amirm]

I am sadly witnessing some harder lines on some responses lately, not only in this thread but on several others, it is sad because the forum intent is mostly to share experiences, points of view, comments or even one or other joke here and there without no further assumption that we picked one nice hobby - a hobby that keeps our souls closer to mundane things such as cleaning an LP, hunting for a record and listening music in a way that very few people can, music played in above-average audio systems.

I hope we can evenly return to that spirit, learn from others, stay humble and enjoying music...it is nothing more complex than that IMHO.

Well said. Don't know about where you live but it is a magnificent day here. Sunny. Blue sky. Temps in 70s. 100% comfortable. This is no day to have angst over anything .

Got a reminder from Amazon that I have "MP3 credits" that are expiring. I usually let them expire. But then I remembered the last two tracks I went listening for were only available in MP3! So I went and bought them with my $2 credit that was handed to me for buying certain CDs. Darn good music especially when it is free! . Good value to be sure.

 

[Bill Hart]

I have. To my ear, the better it gets, the less it sounds like tube gear. But it still has the heat, the expense, the maintenance issues, etc. And I've yet to hear tube gear that takes control of drivers the way good SS does. Well, almost never. I had a tube headphone amp on loan for a few weeks that was tremendously powerful (500 milliwatts) for the job and matched well to my high-impedance Sennheisers, With no crossovers to push through, it took control of the Senns drivers very well. I really enjoyed listening to it for a couple of weeks, but when I put the old SS mosfet amp back in, the difference between the two was vanishingly small. God it looked cool, though.

Tim

Agreed on PITA factor. And also probably agree re ability of big solid state amp to control bass- my hestitation on that is only that I don't use powerful amps any more and don't know- one of my own limitations in knowledge- certainly was true when I had big powerful solid state stuff, but that was eons ago. And also agreed re tubes and no crossover- that's what my system is, if you imagine a midrange horn as a giant headphone.
Thanks for the response. And yes, tubes do have a cool factor, at least aesthetically....

 

[Ethan Winer]

To be fair, Atkinson did hammer them on the measurements.

Sure, except he negated that entirely with his closing comment:

Does it sound good because of how it measures, or despite it?

--Ethan

 

[Andre Marc]

Sure, except he negated that entirely with his closing comment:



--Ethan

Um, I think he meant it sounded good to ART (despite the measurements), not necessarily to him.

That is how I read it. Outside of speakers, he rarely, if ever comments on sound quality in the measurements section.

 

[Andre Marc]

Sure, except he negated that entirely with his closing comment:



--Ethan

Um, I think he meant it sounded good to ART (despite the measurements), not necessarily to him.

That is how I read it. Outside of speakers, he rarely, if ever comments on sound quality in the measurements section.

 

[Gregadd]

valkyrie- although the car analogy only goes so far, Ferraris are not unreliable, i have owned a number of them. The reason why you don't see many on the highways is twofold: relative to other marques, there just aren't that many, even with the increased production since the 1990's and they aren't really just 'transportation' in the prosaic sense, so anyone who is just commuting or driving to get from spot A to spot B is unlikely to use the car, rather than something else. To be sure, the 4 seaters are comfortable autobahn cruisers, and the 12 cylinder 2 seaters are equally fine for highway driving. The smaller 8 cylinder cars are a little more 'boy racer' and would get tiresome on the highway. (These days, though, with paddle shifting in virtually all of them, it's even less of an issue). I used to drive mine everywhere. To the city, from my house (then in Westchester, on a spur of the moment 'let's take a drive' to Florida one dreary winter morning; all along the PCH route 1, from Carmel to LA, etc.). The engine out service is just part of the package- maintenance is expensive, but it has little to do with reliabilty, it's a belt service that's part of the planned service interval and if you buy the car, you know you need to do it, no different than having to spend money on tube complements.
Just sayin...

Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche and MB all in 10 mile radius of me. Then so is the Redskins headuarters and practice facility. If you've rode in one you'll know.

 

[Ethan Winer]

I am sadly witnessing some harder lines on some responses lately

Indeed. I'll never understand why people can't discuss things without being insulting. Don't they realize it reflects more poorly on them than on the target of their aggression?

--Ethan

 

[Bill Hart]

Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche and MB all in 10 mile radius of me. Then so is the Redskins headuarters and practice facility. If you've rode in one you'll know.

So, I'm standing out front of the 4Seasons in Beverly Hills smoking and watching the endless parade of over the top rides and patrons. Talk about some serious bodywork that had been done- and then there were the cars...
Anyway, out comes Dennis Rodman, gets into a then new purple metallic Diablo Roadster, his crew climbs into a big-assed Bentley (new, not vintage) sedan, and they are ready to roll out of the parking lot. The crew is all cool looking, black suits, the shades, very urban LA celebrity bad-assed, no foolin' around kinda dudes. Except Dennis can't, for some reason, do the clutch thing. Keeps stalling right in front of the hotel entrance. You can tell the posse is getting a little embarassed that the man can't launch out of there smoothly. They finally get out of the driveway, cause they are holding up the line of serious cars behind them. Mercedes- for hire cars, not serious. Maybach, serious, even though pathetically overweight and overpriced. Rollers- fine, so long as they are either brand new, or convertibles. Bentleys- currency of the realm for transportation. Anything less, get dropped off down the street- you don't want to pull into the front driveway. Best one, I'm up one morning early, standing out front, smoking and drinking espresso, hot young thing in fishnets, go-go boots and miniskirt is waiting for the carhop to bring her ride up from the basement garage. We talk for a minute. She's got a bowling bag for a purse and a little too much make-up. Very Amy Winehouse, pre-Amy Winehouse. The valet rolls up in her 66 Pontiac GTO. She won the car prize that day.
Lot's o bling near me too. Down the road is Alpine NJ, home of many sports stars. The local Italian restaurant is a hoot. First, there is the question of who gets the best space, right in front. One car will lose primacy if another, more over the top ride rolls in. Usually, there's the row of Bentleys, the Porsches get relegated (I dig Porsches, not dissing them) to a row further away; Italian exotics always get the best spaces, sometimes 3 or 4 of the same model new F-car in a row. Kinda makes you realize how not special you are b/c of your blingy car. I used to take my pre-war car down there every once in a while. Kinda threw them.

 

[KeithR]

I have. To my ear, the better it gets, the less it sounds like tube gear. But it still has the heat, the expense, the maintenance issues, etc. And I've yet to hear tube gear that takes control of drivers the way good SS does. Well, almost never. I had a tube headphone amp on loan for a few weeks that was tremendously powerful (500 milliwatts) for the job and matched well to my high-impedance Sennheisers, With no crossovers to push through, it took control of the Senns drivers very well. I really enjoyed listening to it for a couple of weeks, but when I put the old SS mosfet amp back in, the difference between the two was vanishingly small. God it looked cool, though.

Tim

Tim, have you ever heard a tube amp on your system and not a headphone amplifier? I'm talking a well built, competently designed one-- pick your manufacturer. ARC, BAT, Vac, EAR, Quad, etc. I realize you have active speakers, but I presume you can disable those amplifiers and drive externally. Or alternatively, have you been to a WBF member's house and heard great examples of both, mano y mano?

 

[FrantzM]

So, I'm standing out front of the 4Seasons in Beverly Hills smoking and watching the endless parade of over the top rides and patrons. Talk about some serious bodywork that had been done- and then there were the cars...
Anyway, out comes Dennis Rodman, gets into a then new purple metallic Diablo Roadster, his crew climbs into a big-assed Bentley (new, not vintage) sedan, and they are ready to roll out of the parking lot. The crew is all cool looking, black suits, the shades, very urban LA celebrity bad-assed, no foolin' around kinda dudes. Except Dennis can't, for some reason, do the clutch thing. Keeps stalling right in front of the hotel entrance. You can tell the posse is getting a little embarassed that the man can't launch out of there smoothly. They finally get out of the driveway, cause they are holding up the line of serious cars behind them. Mercedes- for hire cars, not serious. Maybach, serious, even though pathetically overweight and overpriced. Rollers- fine, so long as they are either brand new, or convertibles. Bentleys- currency of the realm for transportation. Anything less, get dropped off down the street- you don't want to pull into the front driveway. Best one, I'm up one morning early, standing out front, smoking and drinking espresso, hot young thing in fishnets, go-go boots and miniskirt is waiting for the carhop to bring her ride up from the basement garage. We talk for a minute. She's got a bowling bag for a purse and a little too much make-up. Very Amy Winehouse, pre-Amy Winehouse. The valet rolls up in her 66 Pontiac GTO. She won the car prize that day.
Lot's o bling near me too. Down the road is Alpine NJ, home of many sports stars. The local Italian restaurant is a hoot. First, there is the question of who gets the best space, right in front. One car will lose primacy if another, more over the top ride rolls in. Usually, there's the row of Bentleys, the Porsches get relegated (I dig Porsches, not dissing them) to a row further away; Italian exotics always get the best spaces, sometimes 3 or 4 of the same model new F-car in a row. Kinda makes you realize how not special you are b/c of your blingy car. I used to take my pre-war car down there every once in a while. Kinda threw them.

I love it : Dennis doesn't get that "Clutch Thing" You made my day ...

 

[Gregadd]

On a lessor note I was up riding my bicycle early Saturday morning along the W.O&D bike trail ( a converted railroad track)in Norhtern Virginia. The locals sporting there skin suits stretched out of shape by their bulging midrifts. We gather at a popular watering hole next to the Carolina Barbecue(very good BTW)( in Ashburn.
The calibre of bicyles easily equal or rival those riden by the top athletes in TdF time trial. Colnago, Cervelo, Trek, Kestral, et,al The latest in carbon frames, wheels, cllipless pedals, and titanium parts. Parts are drilled out to minimize weight. All capable of impressive speed limited only by the fitness of the rider. The prices will make you blush. Once you have dropped the hammer on one, you'll never go back.

 

[Steve williams]

I love it : Dennis doesn't get that "Clutch Thing" You made my day ...

must have been a while ago because I recently read that Rodman doesn't have from busfare to welfare with all of the alimony that he is paying

 

[cjfrbw]

On a lessor note I was up riding my bicycle early Saturday morning along the W.O&D bike trail ( a converted railroad track)in Norhtern Virginia. The locals sporting there skin suits stretched out of shape by their bulging midrifts. We gather at a popular watering hole next to the Carolina Barbecue(very good BTW)( in Ashburn.
The calibre of bicyles easily equal or rival those riden by the top athletes in TdF time trial. Colnago, Cervelo, Trek, Kestral, et,al The latest in carbon frames, wheels, cllipless pedals, and titanium parts. Parts are drilled out to minimize weight. All capable of impressive speed limited only by the fitness of the rider. The prices will make you blush. Once you have dropped the hammer on one, you'll never go back.

Biker tights should come with barf bags. If you're not rail thin or young, dont wear them. Not to mention all that compressed cellulite breaking through without warning and knocking somebody else off their bike.

 

[Gregadd]

Biker tights should come with barf bags. If you're not rail thin or young, dont wear them. Not to mention all that compressed cellulite breaking through without warning and knocking somebody else off their bike.

Funny. They really are essential.

 

[cjfrbw]

Funny. They really are essential.

I have to admit, going to Walmart and seeing the overendowed in tight capris is worse.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim, have you ever heard a tube amp on your system and not a headphone amplifier? I'm talking a well built, competently designed one-- pick your manufacturer. ARC, BAT, Vac, EAR, Quad, etc. I realize you have active speakers, but I presume you can disable those amplifiers and drive externally. Or alternatively, have you been to a WBF member's house and heard great examples of both, mano y mano?

You really can't disable actives and run them as passives. Their crossovers are in the signal path before the amplifiers and they are quite different from passive crossovers. So no, I haven't heard tubes in my own system. I haven't even heard conventional solid state in this system. But I have heard contemporary, high-quality tube amplifiers in other people's systems. I came to actives through headphone systems and it has been a long time since I've listened to....transport>cables>preamp>cables>amps>cables>nest of resistance known as the passive crossover network>drivers...on a daily basis. But I do get out, and I have a few audiophile friends. One has a surround system in which his big Martin Logan hybrids have become the rears (the fronts are now Legends). He drives them with McIntosh SS. Another is an odd horn lover with a pair of highly modified vintage Altecs driven by Carey tube amps (lots of vinyl). This stuff is fun. It'll move some air. A third has Bryston amps and big Vienna Acoustics. Beethoven Grands. This is by far my favorite of these three systems. And I have known a few dealers and have heard a lot of other stuff over the years.

At this point I'm fully acclimated to very high-powered, high-quality actives (without the upper midrange lift common to cheap monitors), and to headphone systems -- Hard drive server, all digital media, minimal cabling, minimal duplicaton of components, no transports, no preamps, no passive crossovers and either headphone or nearfield -- ie: minimal (and dampened) reflected sound. I will qualify this next comment with MHO, YMMV, any other inititals I may need, and the admission that I may very well be the victim of my own methodology -- that I, like so many of us, may simply like what I'm used to - expectation bias and all of that. But the bottom line is that even conventional SS state systems with very good amplification sound, somehow, imprecise to me. The best tubes I've ever heard were even more so, though I will give them a tonality that minimizes the ill effects of passive crossovers where some solid state seems to make the most of it. One more time before I finish -- YMMV, MHO, I'm as susceptible to bias as anyone...but I think you guys are arguing over the tone of your distortions instead of minimizing them. I'm not going back.

My God. I sound like Frank.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Once you have dropped the hammer on one, you'll never go back.

Exactly.

Tim

 

[mep]

I have to admit, going to Walmart and seeing the overendowed in tight capris is worse.

I would rather take a beating than shop at WalMart. It reminds me of trying to watch one of those hoarding shows on TV, I just can't do it-it's too uncomfortable.