Zero Distortion: More on restored Thorens 124

[Audiophile Bill]

Hi Marc,

Yes the AF1 (my fave current production TT with Kodo Beat) measures 0.03% combined w&f - “as good as it gets” in hifi news entire database ever measured. This is exactly the same as even SME 20/3 (not checked 15 yet). In terms of through bearing rumble, the AF1 is -74.5 and the SME 30 is -76. So yes the SME 30 TT measures better than AF1. Now don’t get me wrong I’ll take AF1 any da over my SME and I am no “measurebator” but I do find there parameters important for a TT. No surprise to me that AF1 measured so impeccably though.

I do think the new American Sound product could pip even these measurement stakes - would love to see results when it is released.

Anyway - I am sounding really anti idler - I am totally not though and would love a decent restore of Garrard 301 I particular.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I do feel that idlers seem to get it right at the low end of price range - it really doesn’t cost much to source a 301 or L75 and pop it in a bespoke plinth. You can DIY this for less than £3k. My rim drive costs just shy of this figure. Then there are great examples of proper pro refurbs like the PTP Solid 9 and 12, and Torqueos that cost a little more. Artisan Fidelity go to even greater aesthetic levels, but you’re now paying top belt drive prices.
Very few if any belt drives are going to beat a PTP at €3-4K or a Hanze 124 at €5k or a Torqueo at €6-8k.
That’s why I really do believe I’ll have to go to SME 30 levels to really fully surpass my Salvation rim drive, with the outlier Blackstone idler as the joker in the pack.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Anyway schopper is third generation and been around longer than most commercial manufacturers. As you know SME has changed hands and we won't know what's coming. Look up maintenance reports on big name amps and speakers (which both of us are aware of), so dismissing DIY is unfair. Hifi is an uncertain industry, anyone could blow up. (...)

You are comparing the incomparable. Companies like SME have distributors and service (including excellent service manuals) all around the world - when I need a part I can even send an email, transfer the payment and get spares for my 30 years old SME 3012R in less than one week. If a SME turntable owner in my country has a problem, he can even get home assistance at a very nice price in less than one week.

 

[microstrip]

(...) In terms of through bearing rumble, the AF1 is -74.5 and the SME 30 is -76. So yes the SME 30 TT measures better than AF1. (...)

Were they measured at the same time using the same technique? Otherwise I would be tempted to say they measure similarly withing the error of the measurements. Absolute very low bearing rumble is very hard to measure accurately.

Rumble single figure is an weighted measurement - when addressing such "better" aspects we would need a spectra of rumble to really compare them.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Hi Micro,

Yes they are measuring everything consistently using same tools and indeed you can see the spectra you refer to as well as several other rumble measurements. There are quite a lot of other measurements that they also do btw. They have done this consistently for many years now. They basically conclude that they are equivalent - AF1 and SME 30 though.

They also conduct various measurements also for amps, dacs, speakers etc.

 

[microstrip]

Hi Micro,

Yes they are measuring everything consistently using same tools and indeed you can see the spectra you refer to as well as several other rumble measurements. There are quite a lot of other measurements that they also do btw. They have done this consistently for many years now. They basically conclude that they are equivalent - AF1 and SME 30 though.

They also conduct various measurements also for amps, dacs, speakers etc.

Excellent. Can I ask who are "they"? Can we get the reviews?

 

[spiritofmusic]

I run a 1968 Citroen DS21 that probably has better spares and service back up now than 5 decades ago.
In many ways it still beats many cars on the road for holistic driving experience.
I run a 1998 Barco 1210 CRT PJ, that again in many respects tonks current generation digital PJs.
But I’d never say either comprehensively beats a modern day performance car, or a modern day digital PJ, there’s so much more range of attributes that 2017 models of both bring.
So it seems somewhat pointless to surmise a modded 124 is other than in a couple of key areas going to fully compete with something as fully formed, evolved, updated and optimised as Bill’s 30/2. Apples and oranges. And I don’t just mean idler drive and belt drive.
Blackstone idler? Now this is a different proposition altogether.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Hey Micro,

You sure can. It is the Hifi-news team spear-headed by Paul Miller. One of the main reasons I still didn’t cancel my subscription to their mag. For the database, you need to visit their webpage and sign up for access to the measurements.

Now I don’t remember whether this is only available to subscribers or not - you’ll have to check.

 

[bonzo75]

Hi,
I don’t doubt that Mr Salvatore enjoys his Lenco and perhaps this version is quieter - dunno without seeing independently measured data. That said I am fairly certain this design will not be anywhere near state of the art now though in terms of through bearing rumble. Again not saying it doesn’t make great music.

As another data point to show how we vary - In the present context Mr Salvatore also happens to declare the Kuzma XL as A class too - the author of this this thread (Kedar) happens to very much dislike the Kuzma XL.

Salvatore declared that then without hearing it himself, based on review from friends. That might have changed

 

[christoph]

If it works for you Great !, and we will all enjoy your Audio travel writing and comparos

Like someone said so wonderfully: "Kedar, the Antony Bourdain of high end audio"

 

[microstrip]

Hey Micro,

You sure can. It is the Hifi-news team spear-headed by Paul Miller. One of the main reasons I still didn’t cancel my subscription to their mag. For the database, you need to visit their webpage and sign up for access to the measurements.

Now I don’t remember whether this is only available to subscribers or not - you’ll have to check.

Thanks - I have access to it as I have the password, but we can only find measurements up to the end of 2014.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/avtech/

2005 starts...

 

[853guy]

Like someone said so wonderfully: "Kedar, the Antony Bourdain of high end audio"

Technically, Anthony Bourdain is a writer/culinary adventurer who made his name as an executive chef in French cuisine.

Bonzo is a blogger/audio tourist who has yet to own, set up or adjust a turntable.

I love what Bonzo contributes, but I would much rather Anthony Bourdain make me a meal, than Bonzo set up my cartridge. (Insert smiley face here)

With tongue firmly in my cheek but with great affection,

853guy

 

[gian60]

My friend has a SME 30/12 with V12 and Atlas and is happy.
He bought also now a Lenco PTP with 507 and XV1T and found Lenco little less transparent but little more dense,more natural on mid and voices seems more real
I told also to try to change cartridges,could be something change,we see

 

[bonzo75]

Technically, Anthony Bourdain is a writer/culinary adventurer who made his name as an executive chef in French cuisine.

Bonzo is a blogger/audio tourist who has yet to own, set up or adjust a turntable.

I love what Bonzo contributes, but I would much rather Anthony Bourdain make me a meal, than Bonzo set up my cartridge. (Insert smiley face here)

With tongue firmly in my cheek but with great affection,

853guy

I am not planning to set up my own cartridge initially, far less yours. But I can point you to restaurants so you can choose your Bourdain. I will learn cart set up and that's a different journey. My outdoor journey will move indoors. Buy tickets now.

There are people who restore a 124 well and those who set up your favorite cartridge well. I am sure there are others for other tables

 

[bonzo75]

Hi,
I don’t doubt that Mr Salvatore enjoys his Lenco and perhaps this version is quieter - dunno without seeing independently measured data. That said I am fairly certain this design will not be anywhere near state of the art now though in terms of through bearing rumble. Again not saying it doesn’t make great music.

As another data point to show how we vary - In the present context Mr Salvatore also happens to declare the Kuzma XL as A class too - the author of this this thread (Kedar) happens to very much dislike the Kuzma XL.

Salvatore's quote from his site. I haven't looked for updates.

"I've heard a number of turntables with two motors. Unfortunately, none of them had the effective torque of the Lenco. One of my associates has extensively heard one with four motors; the Kuzma Stabi XL4 Turntable, and he has been very impressed with it. A comparison between the Lenco and the Kuzma was originally scheduled in February 2010, but later cancelled. We still hope to make this comparison eventually. However, even if the Kuzma succeeds, consider its cost and complexity? It may well be the one exception that proves the rule."

btw I like the stabi M

 

[awsmone]

Hi Marc,

Yes the AF1 (my fave current production TT with Kodo Beat) measures 0.03% combined w&f - “as good as it gets” in hifi news entire database ever measured. This is exactly the same as even SME 20/3 (not checked 15 yet). In terms of through bearing rumble, the AF1 is -74.5 and the SME 30 is -76. So yes the SME 30 TT measures better than AF1. Now don’t get me wrong I’ll take AF1 any da over my SME and I am no “measurebator” but I do find there parameters important for a TT. No surprise to me that AF1 measured so impeccably though.

I do think the new American Sound product could pip even these measurement stakes - would love to see results when it is released.

Anyway - I am sounding really anti idler - I am totally not though and would love a decent restore of Garrard 301 I particular.

My sony psx9 was measured in March 2017 by miller in HFN and from memory compares favourably ...cannot find the article just now....found it 0.02% accuracy and -74db rumble thru spindle



HI-FI NEWS VERDICT
The reason this turntable belongs in a ‘greatest ever’ list is easy to determine. Quite simply, it is an incredible design that is a joy
to operate and sounds utterly stunning. Thanks to a master tape-like sense of accuracy, incredible insight and some of the best bass you are likely to hear anywhere, the PS-X9 richly deserves its reputation. So, is it the very best of its kind? It’s hard to say, but it’s distinctly possible.

 

[bonzo75]

My friend has a SME 30/12 with V12 and Atlas and is happy.
He bought also now a Lenco PTP with 507 and XV1T and found Lenco little less transparent but little more dense,more natural on mid and voices seems more real
I told also to try to change cartridges,could be something change,we see

View attachment 37137
View attachment 37138

I prefer the atlas to the xv1 T based on direct compare on Linn lp12. I also preferred the kleos. Though for my tastes, I would need an explosive cartridge like Lyra on Linn, raven, or verdier to bring them to life. I need to do a similar compare on a DD. Shane might have better insight since he has both carts, raven, Linn, and DD. But on paper, imo the SME had the superior cart, and it is not that xv1 is really that denser. If it was zyx I can understand. Knowing lenco it's the TT.

 

[gilles13]

My friend has a SME 30/12 with V12 and Atlas and is happy.
He bought also now a Lenco PTP with 507 and XV1T and found Lenco little less transparent but little more dense,more natural on mid and voices seems more real
I told also to try to change cartridges,could be something change,we

Hi Gian, it'seems the lenco is a Jean Nantais design.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Sorry Ked this is all just misleading semantics. The bottom line is the website by A Salvatore has a list of his reference components whether these be TTs or anything else. His website has listed Kuzma XL as class A - if he does not stand behind his “associates” as he calls them - whatever. That is like Stereophile list making caveats per reviewer.