Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[bonzo75]

Don’t need to. Heard them in Germany and with subs on but turned well down. Did not sound remotely full-range then. I have heard many models of Cessaro.

The Munich demo, as explained to you many times, is no indication of anything

 

[morricab]

Oh you are referring to the amps. No idea. They allow you to differentiate between the treble of the two tables though

Had these monos for review in 2016...quite good...

 

[morricab]

The Munich demo, as explained to you many times, is no indication of anything

And that is your opinion, which is no indication of anything. I have heard at least 5 models of all sizes and they often didn’t sound good in Munich because the designer deliberately turns the bass way down. Makes them sound like a large table radio. Why exactly I cannot say. The best demo I heard with Cessaro was the Alphas with KR Audio but only after hours when the power was clean...then it was very good.

 

[bonzo75]

And that is your opinion, which is no indication of anything. I have heard at least 5 models of all sizes and they often didn’t sound good in Munich because the designer deliberately turns the bass way down. Makes them sound like a large table radio. Why exactly I cannot say. The best demo I heard with Cessaro was the Alphas with KR Audio but only after hours when the power was clean...then it was very good.

So it had nothing to do with the speaker?

 

[morricab]

So it had nothing to do with the speaker?

As much as any system. But the systems where the bass horns were deliberately turned down sound unbalanced. The Alpha system just sounded harsh until the power got clean...always had adequate bass

 

[ddk]

They are not subs, they are the bass channel.

How do you know this? The boxes come with built-in plate amps and pretty much the standard digital crossover you find on any HT sub from JL Labs or others, where's the distinction between sub & bass channel?

david

 

[morricab]

How do you know this? The boxes come with built-in plate amps and pretty much the standard digital crossover you find on any HT sub from JL Labs or others, where's the distinction between sub & bass channel?

david

A sub is designed to reinforce low bass (typically <80Hz) and the Cessaro woofers are crossing over higher than this and are integral to have any real bass from the system...they are not an optional add-on.

 

[Tango]

Maybe we should just end at my system has no bass, then everyone will sleep happily. Also no Cessaro sounds good. This is really a no problem with me.

Tang

 

[ddk]

A sub is designed to reinforce low bass (typically <80Hz) and the Cessaro woofers are crossing over higher than this and are integral to have any real bass from the system...they are not an optional add-on.

My subs' crossover goes up to 250hz and my speaker goes only down to 50hz it doesn't make them woofers no matter where I cross them at. You should really spend sometime with these speakers before making all these assumptions based on some show experience.

david

 

[Tango]

Had these monos for review in 2016...quite good...

Mr. Morrical, my monos are Ayon Titan Evo. Not the Vulcan Evo you reviewed on Positive Feedback on 05/06/17. The Ayon Titan Evo monos were reviewed by another person I believe.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[adyc]

Why can’t just one plug a computer and play some monotone frequency to determine the in room response? Why all the theoretical talk and one can settle the issue quite easily by measurement?

 

[Kcin]

Common guys. You all assume I am Santa Claus. There is limit and social manner in doing things in one's place. Four days of Ked's switching carts, arms, if you know how curious he was, already way too much for any of you guys here can bear. I am the Master Zen of patience. I even hired a tonearmguy to do the job and took care of him for a day because I had to work and things to take care. It was all at my curtesy. Four days five carts three tts with three arms and switching. We are lucky he could cover all that without being sloppy.

I didnt let him compare phonos due to what I mentioned in other post. I also could not have played tape for him because I did not have a long enough interconnect cable to connect my tape machine to pre. I am waiting for Kuro in appropriate length to arrive. Yes, I do have tapes of the same album that can compare to vinyls. But it didnt happen. Bonzo knows and very careful in proper methodology you guys like to put into question so much. So no need to question him on those regards. Whether he could do as suppose to is different matters. The room is mine not his.

Kind regards,
Tang

Maybe we should just end at my system has no bass, then everyone will sleep happily. Also no Cessaro sounds good. This is really a no problem with me.

Tang

Mr. Tang,

You are very generous , gracious and patient man... This reminds me a bit of the previous discussion on here with a member's assessment of the Lamm ML3's versus the big Dartzeels .

I appreciate your views and experience with varied top class equipment... cheers.

 

[Tango]

Why can’t just one plug a computer and play some monotone frequency to determine the in room response? Why all the theoretical talk and one can settle the issue quite easily by measurement?

Yes I could. But I really have nothing to proove to the world.

From this point on. This is really not addressing directly to you adyc.

Why all the fuzz with my bass? I would trade off some bass foundation for this incredible nuances clarity resolution highend extension on mid and upper region that frankly could only be compared to tape anytime if I have to. These sound aspects I mentioned just keep getting better and better as my Master Sig and Kuro speaker cables breaking in...No bull $h*t!! I didn't tell you guys that I switched my speaker cables from MIT to Kuro two days after David left. These cables are thick solid core and take a long time to start to break in. The Master Sig too. This cart just keeps improving. I am telling you guys there is nothing I ever heard beat this cart on woody instruments with strings.

On the contrary to what most people think, Now I am thinking this Gamma II system is really better than I thought. Even without the bass horns which are part of the system, it could entertain me and my very experienced ears friends at an extremely high level in their own words. And thanks god my bass horns didnt work perfectly in my system, otherwise Bonzo might have stripped his clothes while dancing to classical music. That would be a really ugly sight.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[Tango]

Mr. Tang,

You are very generous , gracious and patient man... This reminds me a bit of the previous discussion on here with a member's assessment of the Lamm ML3's versus the big Dartzeels .

I appreciate your views and experience with varied top class equipment... cheers.

Thank you. And you are most welcome Kcin.
I am just a data point. Nothing more.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[Tango]

Yes Tang we're waiting patiently for the addition of Lamm amps

The new ML3.1 is not coming out so soon. Will probably be at a sky high price too. Let's see if destiny strikes. Somehow I have a feeling it will strike Christian first if ever any strike.

Tang

 

[kodomo]

Tang, I would like to suggest one thing to you if I may. If your bass section is correctly dialed you do not loose any of the incredible nuances clarity resolution you hear now. So, when you have the space available to have the bass channels back on, I recommend not using the scoop bins you have but try another solution. I have tried that typology and it is not a great choice. These kind of bins do not have the high quality bass that could match the rest of your system. The scoops design is most probably familiar to you as you said you were into 80s techno. They were all over the place and they were called kick bins back then. Use high quality direct radiators (you can use the drivers on the scoops as they were TAD 1601's I guess) in sealed or br boxes. You have the amps too, so you can adjust them to match the level of the horns, don't worry, if you have enough, you won't be straining them. I do that with 4 TAD 1601b woofers in groups of two, I can not see the cones move at all with any program. You can do that or you can check Cessaro's newer bass horns. If you think your cutoff is low enough, you can get danley tapped horns to complement your horns too but I still think the cutoff of the horns will be high for that. Still, the bass channels are not a solution that can be applied easily. They work with the room. Your room should not let the bass decay longer than it is supposed to, or whatever you use, you loose those nuances and the things you love without your bass channels.

As for what I think for the sound of Cessaro's, especially Gamma's, I have written before, I will say it once more; I think they are one of the best commercially available horn systems in the world.

For DDK, there is no assumption that there is nothing below 110hz. I said, for 3 times, they can have bass below midbass cutoff but the the bass below the horn loading frequency will be about 6db lower and have a falling response from there on. It is there, not to the level.

No more derailing of the subject from my part, this was my last message on Tang's bass channel on this topic

Once more thanks Tang and Bonzo for all these. Tang, if you consider yourself a data point, do not be put off by people to make something out of this data. To understand the data, one has to get the context of the data as much as possible, hence the scrutinising.

 

[bonzo75]

The new ML3.1 is not coming out so soon. Will probably be at a sky high price too. Let's see if destiny strikes. Somehow I have a feeling it will strike Christian first if ever any strike.

Tang

I am sure Mike's ML3s are the at the place of someone who will try and let them go soon given he does not have the appropriate speakers for these amps

 

[Tango]

Tang, I would like to suggest one thing to you if I may. If your bass section is correctly dialed you do not loose any of the incredible nuances clarity resolution you hear now. So, when you have the space available to have the bass channels back on, I recommend not using the scoop bins you have but try another solution. I have tried that typology and it is not a great choice. These kind of bins do not have the high quality bass that could match the rest of your system. The scoops design is most probably familiar to you as you said you were into 80s techno. They were all over the place and they were called kick bins back then. Use high quality direct radiators (you can use the drivers on the scoops as they were TAD 1601's I guess) in sealed or br boxes. You have the amps too, so you can adjust them to match the level of the horns, don't worry, if you have enough, you won't be straining them. I do that with 4 TAD 1601b woofers in groups of two, I can not see the cones move at all with any program. You can do that or you can check Cessaro's newer bass horns. If you think your cutoff is low enough, you can get danley tapped horns to complement your horns too but I still think the cutoff of the horns will be high for that. Still, the bass channels are not a solution that can be applied easily. They work with the room. Your room should not let the bass decay longer than it is supposed to, or whatever you use, you loose those nuances and the things you love without your bass channels.

Dear Kodomo,

This is the kind of comments that I highly value. It is very useful for me and for my future improvement plan. Cessaro has a front load bass horns that Ralph told me is better than what I have. But they are too big for my room. That is why I have what I have. Things will be different with my new room.

Thank you very much. I really appreciate your suggestion.

Tang

 

[morricab]

Mr. Morrical, my monos are Ayon Titan Evo. Not the Vulcan Evo you reviewed on Positive Feedback on 05/06/17. The Ayon Titan Evo monos were reviewed by another person I believe.

Kind regards,
Tang

I see. Well given what I know from the Crossfire and the Vulcan I am sure the Titan is superb.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . If your bass section is correctly dialed you do not loose any of the incredible nuances clarity resolution you hear now . . .

Respectfully, I think you are ignoring the hard question. This begs the puzzling and interesting question/development behind the members who have disconnected entirely their subwoofer systems.

It appears that in some situations not even the best subwoofers in the world can be correctly dialed in to some systems. No matter what the setting of the subwoofers some systems which had subwoofers sound better without them.