Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[bonzo75]

Thanks Vlad. Is that being driver by a Border Patrol 300b?

Btw, are you in Russia? If so, there is DIY person there named Oleg in Moscow, you might know, who makes very good TAD horns.

 

[VladB]

Yes, the amp is Border Patrol with Takatsuki 300Bs and the large and heavy power supplies (EXS model, I think).

I heard about Oleg’s work, he is doing some nice things (non-horn)

 

[VladB]

Sorry, I am having some issues with editing on my iPad - he is doing some nice things with Accutons as well, not only horns.

 

[bonzo75]

Sorry, I am having some issues with editing on my iPad - he is doing some nice things with Accutons as well, not only horns.

Yes, Murat was trying something with Accuton in addition to his favorite AERs too. Both those guys are doing fantastic things

 

[Tango]

If nobody minds, I’ll post a couple of videos here as this topic has some Cessaro flavoring over it... if not, I’ll move them somewhere else.

The LF bass bins’ crossover is set for 115Hz, 3-order here, level 0 volume. Playing some fairly standard cd recordings.

Don't mind at all. Feel free to post. We do like videos. This thread goes everywhere.
Mine is now set at 85Hz, slope 18, level +1

@bonzo Maybe we don't need Lampi or MSB to make Tchaikovsky sound good.

 

[Tango]

S


so the ‘Sibilance issue‘may have been exacerbated in the bariolage of the chaconne with the dissonance cords

just put smartphone on top and of bass bin and run seismic apps and play some music

i agree there is a very fine line between natural warm or earthy timbre and clarity

you may find just adding deeper bass with effect your whole spectral balance as well as exciting modes more below the Schroder frequency that may not have been energised before or to lesser extent

question about the audibility of group delay below 100 hz is contentious but probably only applies if it does to bass with transient content eg plucked double bass, not organ notes

having said all of that if you get it right it can add greatly to dynamic realism and spatially

Rel used to advice turn it down till you can just hear it’s on, then turn down one or two notches further

this is just general advice but seems a good compromise

I listen to plucked double bass and chamber violin to dial it in, for transient snap , but clarity, with the sense these are wooden instruments being played, I am not familiar enough with electric bass to use that, which might be better as it covers low, mids and treble .

i should mention and correct an earlier statement that Folsom pointed out, that front loaded horns being cardioid will have less effect on room modes with positioning in the sparse mode region of room modes of the bass, but below the lowest room mode they are of no advantage of any other kind of bass system

When I talk sibilance, I just honestly express that there is sibilance. It does not mean that it is a problem for me or that I am disturb by it. Sibilance only comes from vocal. And when we talk sibilance level 5 sibilance from one could easily be level 2 for another. It is so very subjective.

Listening to one of Vlad video, it seems sibilance is not holy water for a vampire either.

 

[cjfrbw]

Most mastering suites use de-essers to reduce sibilance. If it is excessive, I would surmise it is from the amplification or the drivers, especially if it is consistent across all vocal sources.

When I have noticed sibilance in excess, it has usually been from those two, not inherent in the recording so much, although it is possible some recordings might have it natively.

 

[VladB]

Thank you, Tang, as it might take me a while to set up a separate system thread, more so as everything else aside from Cessaro is rather basic with not much audio exotic(s) to recommend, and there are few, if any dedicated Cessaro threads around the global forums community.

I have spent quite some time looking for the best crossover point and slope, trying to cross as low -at 80 hz with -6db slope (as 1st order is supposedly better for phase (non)-inversion), moving up and down and currently settling at the mentioned 115 hz level and -18db.

Setting the crossover point below 100hz generally resulted in a perceived lack of energy at that region given that the mid-bass horn roll-overs pretty steeply down from about 125 hz or so.

Setting the slope at 6db while theoretically best resulted in too much low bass energy slipping into the mid-bass area and beyond, muddying up the sound...

A good practical technique if you are doing it by ear is to turn OFF your main amps and to listen just to the bass bins, how they work and resonate with your room, how you want the low bass to decay, where you feel you do not need the low bass energy any more.

Then when you turn the main amps, you can adjust the crossover point one or two 5 hz increments down while keeping or maybe slightly increasing the bass volume.

That worked for me without any instrumental measurement.

The ability to adjust the phase by 15 degree increments on either of the channels is also interesting but so far I have not found a technique which would give me a clear signal that I am doing the right thing and not just blindly turning the phase knob.

 

[PeterA]

I did not really understand the issue of sibilance until one day when I closed my eyes and listened to a friend talking in my listening room. I asked him to say some phrases with a few Ss in them. Sure enough, I was no longer worried about hearing sibilance from my system, as long as it was portrayed in a natural way. No more worries. In fact, hearing some slight sibilance contributes to the realism of choral and vocal music. Tuning it out of a system could make the music lifeless.

 

[Tango]

Thank you, Tang, as it might take me a while to set up a separate system thread, more so as everything else aside from Cessaro is rather basic with not much audio exotic(s) to recommend, and there are few, if any dedicated Cessaro threads around the global forums community.

I have spent quite some time looking for the best crossover point and slope, trying to cross as low -at 80 hz with -6db slope (as 1st order is supposedly better for phase (non)-inversion), moving up and down and currently settling at the mentioned 115 hz level and -18db.

Setting the crossover point below 100hz generally resulted in a perceived lack of energy at that region given that the mid-bass horn roll-overs pretty steeply down from about 125 hz or so.

Setting the slope at 6db while theoretically best resulted in too much low bass energy slipping into the mid-bass area and beyond, muddying up the sound...

A good practical technique if you are doing it by ear is to turn OFF your main amps and to listen just to the bass bins, how they work and resonate with your room, how you want the low bass to decay, where you feel you do not need the low bass energy any more.

Then when you turn the main amps, you can adjust the crossover point one or two 5 hz increments down while keeping or maybe slightly increasing the bass volume.

That worked for me without any instrumental measurement.

The ability to adjust the phase by 15 degree increments on either of the channels is also interesting but so far I have not found a technique which would give me a clear signal that I am doing the right thing and not just blindly turning the phase knob.

Thank you Vlad. Ralph suggested me to go from 80Hz cut. I actually started at 125Hz. It gave a huge midbass attack in my room. But I lost clarity, resolution and it was like I had two sets of speakers in my room. At 85Hz I still get an energy surge like a can of Redbull (original Thai formula not the weak international one ) I am really not a bass lover. I like these bass horns the way they give details in low region and further add physicality and dimensionality to sound.

I will try your technique.

Tang

 

[Solypsa]

If the sibilance is recorded it should be played back.

In recording and mastering there are de-essers, and for vinyl there are hf limiters, but they come at a cost and are used only when needed if the engineers are good. The goal was never to change what comes out of a singers mouth for the sake of it...

 

[VladB]

It’s interesting how the room acoustics influence the desired cross-over point and slope between low and mid-bass even in the larger rooms where Ralph’s systems usually live...

Ability to adjust this to one’s personal preference without using external digital crossovers is a very important feature of Cessaro line, one which is lacking in most standard speakers.

And - as this thread moves in many directions - another small video to illustrate how natural and smooth the horns’ sound dispersion can be - I am sitting in my favorite armchair 8-9m from the right speaker, the left speaker is fully obstructed by a corner - and still I have all that I could have wished for in terms of tonal balance, space and energy from that another ordinary cd disk - but of course with an extraordinary person performing at his best...

 

[awsmone]

If the sibilance is recorded it should be played back.

In recording and mastering there are de-essers, and for vinyl there are hf limiters, but they come at a cost and are used only when needed if the engineers are good. The goal was never to change what comes out of a singers mouth for the sake of it...

my experience in classical singing, both as a performer , and opera goer, and sponsor of WA opera and the young performers program , I have never heard sibilance, nor in my vast collection of opera recording or recitals of voice
my mother also a trained opera singer, also said it is not part of classical repertoire and is in my experience a consequence of the recording chain and is not natural, obviously modern popular music often uses microphones as part of the performance , so that’s a different matter

violins not have sibilants, though they may have dissonace which is not the same thing

seriously why would you want to listen to sibilants even if on the recording ... it’s like ear self flagellation
I have sensitive ears which I cherish and don’t want it, or need it, but appreciate your hair shirt approach to recorded music .....

 

[microstrip]

A very interesting thread on sibilance in diyaudio.com

Can you have sparkling treble but without sibilance

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/190663-sparkling-treble-sibilance.html

 

[Tango]

This guy does not has sibilance while he is explaning.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I used to run a Lyra Skala. I could never get it not to shred at the top end, and because it was skeletal in the mids, it was pretty much a failure.
Even my ESCO-modded Zu Denon 103 had its moments.

My current Soundsmith Straingauge is so resolved and energetic in the top end it feels like it could lapse into sibilance and stridency...but it never does.

It just has this uncanny ability to keep rising, but never veer into ragged or harsh. A great example is my John Coltrane "Selflessness" original UK pressing Impulse label. It's a real rollercoaster live album w amazing upper mids and treble energy. I'll admit it gets cacophonous at times, but not once does the Straingauge cart shred at all. And lps like this could easily be borderline overchallenging/unlistenable w any cart hinting at sibilance.

I was wary to go from the stock SDS-5 stylus to the -6, because the reports strongly suggested sub par setup of the -6 stylus, esp azimuth and VTA, would display harshness higher up.

Luckily my setup seems to be spot on, because I'm only getting the upsides of the new stylus.

 

[Solypsa]

...obviously modern popular music often uses microphones as part of the performance , so that’s a different matter

violins not have sibilants, though they may have dissonace which is not the same thing

seriously why would you want to listen to sibilants even if on the recording ... it’s like ear self flagellation
I have sensitive ears which I cherish and don’t want it, or need it, but appreciate your hair shirt approach to recorded music .....

Since we were refering to recordings there is always a microphone in use

The flip side is if the performer and engineer don't want sibilance they shouldn't let it go to production. Since production de-essers were mentioned earlier I was commenting that mastering is NOT the place to 'fix it'. (And I used to own a vinyl mastering studio) Mastering the vinyl also does not cause it so it was on the tape/digital master already.

Also my comment was refering to Tang's use of the VdH carts etc. If the sibilance is on the record (note I didn't say I like this) the cart should play it and not 'mask' it imho.

As an aside some carts don't track 'hot' vocals well and that form of tracing distortion sounds ugly but I don't lump this together with sibilance (but some may)

 

[G T Audio]

Thank you audioquattr. Awsmone suggested me to move the horns even closer to where I sit. I have room for only one additional foot. But where it is now, I am quite satisfied. These Cessaro are so transparent and alive.

These big horns from manufacturers like Cessaro and Avantgarde Acoustic are designed so they work best when you are sitting at least 4-5 metres away from the speaker.

 

[bonzo75]

These big horns from manufacturers like Cessaro and Avantgarde Acoustic are designed so they work best when you are sitting at least 4-5 metres away from the speaker.

Yes this will be true of any big multi way horn, to get more point source type coherence

 

[VladB]

Tang meant moving the bass horns closer, not the main towers. Worth a try, though I am not a believer in time alignment at these bass frequencies.