Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[bonzo75]

Just one question - why didn't you compare the turntables sound with tape? IMHO it is the reference to use, considering you dislike top solid state digital.

I don't get tape. Tape sounds either not good enough or too good. Recordings made by Yarlung, Pong, Jonathan etc sound fantastic. I also do not like a lot of the music there. Sometimes classical sounds like jazz, too much in the room. But listen to Beethoven symphony tapes, and the ones I heard have been later generation, and quite poor in SQ.

Now, I did manage to compare some tapes of the exact same performances of the LPs. Did I have conclusions? No, except that the tape was quite better. I remember Steve played Oistrakh Scottish Fantasia on tape and I had the Speaker's Corner. While tape was better, I was quite happy with the LP (played on Techdas Zyx Lamm). Myles' Yarlung Janecki trio was just utterly fantastic (compared to other music on VPI, Atlas/Ortofon A95, Doshi). Both Myles and Steve, like Tang, have the Doshi tape pre.

I heard other Studers without tape preamps. I had mixed results. Some too analytical. Some not enough drive. Put the right tape on, which would usually be excellent sonics accompanied by poor quality music/performance, and the system would come to life.

Dcc played some tapes on his Studer, no tape pre, next to his Brinkmann Balance/Proteus/Allnic. Some were identical performances. The tape was just much more dynamic, better attack, higher dynamic range, better everything

What did we conclude except that when tape sounds better, it sounds better, irrespective of the analog set up, and when it doesn't it doesn't. I have never heard the two sounding very close, though people write about one of their cart sounds closest to tape. One veteran dealer in the UK claims the Proteus sounds closest to his Studer, and he also likes SPUs. DCC uses Studer and Proteus. Steve has Zyx next to his tape. Myles has Atlas and vdh. Tang reported that Atlas sounds closest to his tape. But then he told me that while playing Opus on one of the General's LPs, it sounded like Ed Pong's tapes.

Even at Mike's I was left a bit cold with his tapes, probably due to the music played on it, possibly due to lack of a Doshi pre, I cannot say. I enjoyed his analog so much more.

And the General's music is far far superior to anything on tape. So I am just not interested in tape. I have heard extremely few tape performances that can compete with good recordings from Heifetz, Oistrakh, Michael Rabin, Heimo Haitto, Rosty, Starker, Maria Yudina, Clara Haskil, etc and especially any of the big orchestras (never heard a good tape with their performance). There are so many other performers in Eastern Europe etc not covered by main labels. I am not interested in listening to cafe classical and cafe jazz tapes whose only objective is to make one's system sound impressive to visitors. So I like using these LPs for compare, and I like comparing carts to each other. Comparing them to tape makes them all sound sh*t or all sound better, depending on the tape.

Yes, if one can source masters or first generation of the great LP performances, that would be interesting. Or if someone could copy these LPs on to tape, and play that back through tape, that would be interesting. Maybe to do your compares you are using same sourced material, which I do not have.

I can guess that Lyra and VDH will have the closest dynamic and leading edge attack compared to tape, relative to the other carts.

 

[awsmone]

Good post on tape

To me the medium is not as important as the recording

Problem especially for classical is not many good recordings on tape and such as they are very expensive

I agree with Keds comments

If I could get the music I like on tape I would use it, I had three machines before, but I have 7000 records, and I listen to a lot of different music, don’t disagree that tape is spectacular good sounding

 

[bonzo75]

By recordings I am referring to both pressings and performance. There are LPs going north of 5k. Check out prices for edition 1s of Decca etc LPs. Prices far outstrip tape. And the sonics are quite good, not the good tape level, but performances are far superior.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I don't get tape. Tape sounds either not good enough or too good. Recordings made by Yarlung, Pong, Jonathan etc sound fantastic. I also do not like a lot of the music there. Sometimes classical sounds like jazz, too much in the room. But listen to Beethoven symphony tapes, and the ones I heard have been lower generation, and quite poor in SQ.

Now, I did manage to compare some tapes of the exact same performances of the LPs. Did I have conclusions? No, except that the tape was quite better. I remember Steve played Oistrakh Scottish Fantasia on tape and I had the Speaker's Corner. While tape was better, I was quite happy with the LP (played on Techdas Zyx Lamm). Myles' Yarlung Janecki trio was just utterly fantastic (compared to other music on VPI, Atlas/Ortofon A95, Doshi). Both Myles and Steve, like Tang, have the Doshi tape pre.

I heard other Studers without tape preamps. I had mixed results. Some too analytical. Some not enough drive. Put the right tape on, which would usually be excellent sonics accompanied by poor quality music/performance, and the system would come to life.

Dcc played some tapes on his Studer, no tape pre, next to his Brinkmann Balance/Proteus/Allnic. Some were identical performances. The tape was just much more dynamic, better attack, higher dynamic range, better everything

What did we conclude except that when tape sounds better, it sounds better, irrespective of the analog set up, and when it doesn't it doesn't. I have never heard the two sounding very close, though people write about one of their cart sounds closest to tape. One veteran dealer in the UK claims the Proteus sounds closest to his Studer, and he also likes SPUs. DCC uses Studer and Proteus. Steve has Zyx next to his tape. Myles has Atlas and vdh. Tang reported that Atlas sounds closest to his tape. But then he told me that while playing Opus on one of the General's LPs, it sounded like Ed Pong's tapes.

Even at Mike's I was left a bit cold with his tapes, probably due to the music played on it, possibly due to lack of a Doshi pre, I cannot say. I enjoyed his analog so much more.

And the General's music is far far superior to anything on tape. So I am just not interested in tape. I have heard extremely few tape performances that can compete with good recordings from Heifetz, Oistrakh, Michael Rabin, Heimo Haitto, Rosty, Starker, Maria Yudina, Clara Haskil, etc and especially any of the big orchestras (never heard a good tape with their performance). There are so many other performers in Eastern Europe etc not covered by main labels. I am not interested in listening to cafe classical and cafe jazz tapes whose only objective is to make one's system sound impressive to visitors. So I like using these LPs for compare, and I like comparing carts to each other. Comparing them to tape makes them all sound sh*t or all sound better, depending on the tape.

Yes, if one can source masters or first generation of the great LP performances, that would be interesting. Or if someone could copy these LPs on to tape, and play that back through tape, that would be interesting. Maybe to do your compares you are using same sourced material, which I do not have.

I can guess that Lyra and VDH will have the closest dynamic and leading edge attack compared to tape, relative to the other carts.

Very, very interesting! I do agree that the holy grail is to find your musically favorite performances on low generation tape copies.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Keith, visiting the General has taught me (and Bill) to put records first, as far as the whole system goes (of course we are not denying matching speakers to the room have an equal importance). But my fund priorities have been turned upside down, as originals can cost quite a lot. Apart from being vastly superior to Classic records or Speakers corner, I realized that there is a large part of the music catalog I was interested in that belongs outside the main reissue brands, also in many cases outside the Decca and EMI (though they have many excellent choices). I have therefore got much more focused as far as record collection goes. And as far as purchases, a lot of money this year has gone into records, and more will go into records first. My insight into pressings has gone up exponentially though is still in infancy, and this is where money will go in for a long time.

Gear: Multiple TT compares are one of the best things one can do - whether at the price point of David or Tang, or now Gian whom I will soon visit, or A10 audio (lower price point at Feickert Firebird, Pluto, Reed), Anamighty, as well as the TT shootout in Italy. It teaches one so much what to look for. I have been interacting with Tang on PMs and have known his thoughts since he had only the Kronos and the Techdas, then saw how they changed with the EMT, and then with the AS. After visiting him, was able to calibrate. I have not done a compare of The Vyger Atlantis yet but will do soon. I am quite willing to forege the top TTs for a 124 and put the money into recordings.

Apart from that, it has taught me my price value curve. I still have the Schopper TD 124, STST Motus, Brinkmann Balance, price progression with Torqeo and a DD like Kodo to evaluate. Surely there is further value at Vyger, AS, NVS, but even after appreciating what they do better, I feel quite satiated at lower points. More importantly, I have come to appreciate the wastefulness of many over engineered high priced TTs, which were once a dream product for me, and I can see a lot of posts pop up of A vs B of people who have heard neither, but understand why they are attracted, and can see how a trip similar to mine will help them out.

With phonos, I have not nailed it down but do experience a Ying and Yang with SS and Valves. I like the Allnic, can easily live without the nightmarish 3 boxes of the Eclipse which I think is a great phono, but there are easier options like Allnic, and I have recently got interested in the Phasemation (great value SS, and their top model is a DHT I want to hear). Thomas Mayer is sonically great but very inflexible for me...it is great for someone who knows his final cart. I also want to evaluate old low priced classics like Klyne. And yes for me two arms and a flexible phono is a must. I also revisit stuff. For example, the General has reservations regarding a couple of my choices, and since the main difference in our auditions is the quality of recordings (apart from the system contexts which would differ where he and I heard it), I will be revisiting some of my choices with his type of records. We do not need to agree but if someone challenges, it is good to go out and reverify and save the pain of realizing it later.

Carts - Stradivarius! + Something else (Anamighty's low priced cart is fantastic if you have a SS current phono but not otherwise). But recently doing 2 Master Sig Strad compares in the space of two months, apart from having heard it in two other systems, helped, as did two compares of Opus vs Atlas SL. And a Diamond cantilevered Koetsus vs Decca. Listening to different analog systems also tells you how easily you can hear when someone does not have drive and energy, which means it is either a mismatch in his gain or like Tang showed, in the VTA/SRA

Arms. Both FR 64s, SME 3012r, and in the case of Brinkmann the 10.5 can keep someone happy. Upgrading arms is the last place I will put my budget, though I will make sure I match well. I need to explore LTs more.

Overall system: Stays at SET+Horns as first choice, with stats and modded Tannoys as a compromise back up. If I can't get the room size and afford a full range big horn, then will choose between stats and modded tannoys as a compromise. Sonically prefer stats, but as much as I like being an intense audiophile on some days, I don't like being one daily, and might resist stats due to the sweet spot constraint, and go modded tannoys, much easier on the set up. Sure there are some quality cones like Zellaton Stage, YG Hailey, etc, but too expensive. Some of these expensive systems as well as lower priced ones like Anamighty taught me how important it is to avoid the system signature to allow the performances from records to flow through. There are many amps which prevent this, though they sound great with a digital set up. My amp choices are not clear though I have a fair short list. If I go stats or modded tannoys, I will strongly explore Berning Quads as a final amp. The Audio Machina is also a great small speaker that works fantastic with Berning to let performance from records flow through. I think this is more important than creating a scale with the fake bass and stage of many big cones. Tang's system, even if it does not gel well with the room (he had to remove subs and all) prove to me just how superior horns are, and how easy it is to implement them once you have the space. Gian's Italian tour was a brilliant reinforcement of how small speakers should be relative to the room.

Finally, and most importantly, I long ago accepted I have a dual hobby. My own system goals are music, but at the same time I want to scratch gear itch + forum addiction so I try to keep those separate. These sort of gear compares let me do the fast track on the gear hobby.

Pilgrimages lead to surprises - I was expecting Mike's to be a sterile state system, I argued with Bill a lot before visiting the General that the General's records could not possibly make that much of a difference given what Salvatore and Fremer and TAS have on their list - many other surprises that challenged preconceived notions. Marty's DRC is another example. Meeting people philosophically opposed helps keep my own biases from developing, because someone is always knocking it off before it develops

You can see why I was avoiding writing. There is a lot there I am sure I forgot to write or elaborate properly or said something to upset some unintentionally. It is not easy to cover all details. This is expected to be a high level glance at approaches and brands that have caught my attention.

This is actually a really superlative post with invaluable insights.

 

[jeff1225]

Thanks for enlightening me..I know nothing about rock music

But what’s that got to do with Ked?

He wrote a enormous review with “no” rock music played !

He would be better with. Avatar of Rubinstein etc.....

I've often thought this! Also, John

His handle on the forum is bonzo75. John Bonham was known as "Bonzo". We'll have to wait for Kedar himself to explain why he picked that nickname, seeing as how he mostly listens to classical music

I have to admit I'm confused by the Bonzo moniker as well. Also, Ked listens to no jazz during his evaluations, John Bonham was originally a jazz drummer and modeled his drum kit (both drum sizes and lay out) on Gene Kruppa's.

 

[PeterA]

His handle on the forum is bonzo75. John Bonham was known as "Bonzo". We'll have to wait for Kedar himself to explain why he picked that nickname, seeing as how he mostly listens to classical music

The "75" is also significant, as in the year 1975.

 

[PeterA]

Kedar has Bonzo's hard hitting, take no prisoners, style. He hits the road with his kit, travels hard, parties hard, hits hard, and then writes a report for Zero Distortion. Then, the very next weekend, he hits the road again.

I listen mostly to classical and jazz now, but I love the music of a very short period, right around 1970, by three bands: Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, and Black Sabbath. I like the moniker.

 

[bonzo75]

I wrote in this post how I got into led zep and then classical. Watching the Sidney Lumet video in there is mandatory to understand though.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/threa...-with-classical-music.7237/page-2#post-532820

Peter, deep purple my favourite band before zep. I also saw them live in early 2000s though no Blackmore. I saw black Sabbath live a few years ago.

Jeffrey, the only jazz used there was the Mark Murphy. I used to previously use a Lalo Schifrin CD, blues in the bass ment in my audition CDs. I gave up as acoustic classical is sufficient to evaluate.

For rock, I wouldn't set up a hifi system, and I wouldn't use horns, nor any panel except apogees. So power cones, DRCed to subs. So I stopped using rock for audition. I can be happy listening to it on any system. I do realize that some good rock LPs have great bass.

That said, Mike's room was amazing for led zep. I recently again saw Jimmy page walking down high street Kensington (he lives on the other side), and I wanted to tell him to go to this place in Seattle if he wanted to remember what they sounded like 50 years ago.

 

[asiufy]

Seems it's hard for us to agree on anything
I love rock on horns. It's simply addictive. The rawer, the better. We had a pair of old Duos in the previous store, set up in a room in the back, and I'd often lock myself there and crank the sh*t out of them, either with the little Audiopax amps or with a darTZeel LHC-208 integrated. FUN FUN FUN!
OTOH, for classical, they were nowhere near as fun.
100% of my clients with AGs listen mostly to rock and some jazz. Very little to no classical.

 

[bonzo75]

Duos are half cones, especially in the woofers. Not horns. Like Liszts.

 

[KeithR]

Keith, visiting the General has taught me (and Bill) to put records first, as far as the whole system goes (of course we are not denying matching speakers to the room have an equal importance). But my fund priorities have been turned upside down, as originals can cost quite a lot. Apart from being vastly superior to Classic records or Speakers corner, I realized that there is a large part of the music catalog I was interested in that belongs outside the main reissue brands, also in many cases outside the Decca and EMI (though they have many excellent choices). I have therefore got much more focused as far as record collection goes. And as far as purchases, a lot of money this year has gone into records, and more will go into records first. My insight into pressings has gone up exponentially though is still in infancy, and this is where money will go in for a long time.

Gear: Multiple TT compares are one of the best things one can do - whether at the price point of David or Tang, or now Gian whom I will soon visit, or A10 audio (lower price point at Feickert Firebird, Pluto, Reed), Anamighty, as well as the TT shootout in Italy. It teaches one so much what to look for. I have been interacting with Tang on PMs and have known his thoughts since he had only the Kronos and the Techdas, then saw how they changed with the EMT, and then with the AS. After visiting him, was able to calibrate. I have not done a compare of The Vyger Atlantis yet but will do soon. I am quite willing to forege the top TTs for a 124 and put the money into recordings.

Apart from that, it has taught me my price value curve. I still have the Schopper TD 124, STST Motus, Brinkmann Balance, price progression with Torqeo and a DD like Kodo to evaluate. Surely there is further value at Vyger, AS, NVS, but even after appreciating what they do better, I feel quite satiated at lower points. More importantly, I have come to appreciate the wastefulness of many over engineered high priced TTs, which were once a dream product for me, and I can see a lot of posts pop up of A vs B of people who have heard neither, but understand why they are attracted, and can see how a trip similar to mine will help them out.

With phonos, I have not nailed it down but do experience a Ying and Yang with SS and Valves. I like the Allnic, can easily live without the nightmarish 3 boxes of the Eclipse which I think is a great phono, but there are easier options like Allnic, and I have recently got interested in the Phasemation (great value SS, and their top model is a DHT I want to hear). Thomas Mayer is sonically great but very inflexible for me...it is great for someone who knows his final cart. I also want to evaluate old low priced classics like Klyne. And yes for me two arms and a flexible phono is a must. I also revisit stuff. For example, the General has reservations regarding a couple of my choices, and since the main difference in our auditions is the quality of recordings (apart from the system contexts which would differ where he and I heard it), I will be revisiting some of my choices with his type of records. We do not need to agree but if someone challenges, it is good to go out and reverify and save the pain of realizing it later.

Carts - Stradivarius! + Something else (Anamighty's low priced cart is fantastic if you have a SS current phono but not otherwise). But recently doing 2 Master Sig Strad compares in the space of two months, apart from having heard it in two other systems, helped, as did two compares of Opus vs Atlas SL. And a Diamond cantilevered Koetsus vs Decca. Listening to different analog systems also tells you how easily you can hear when someone does not have drive and energy, which means it is either a mismatch in his gain or like Tang showed, in the VTA/SRA

Arms. Both FR 64s, SME 3012r, and in the case of Brinkmann the 10.5 can keep someone happy. Upgrading arms is the last place I will put my budget, though I will make sure I match well. I need to explore LTs more.

Overall system: Stays at SET+Horns as first choice, with stats and modded Tannoys as a compromise back up. If I can't get the room size and afford a full range big horn, then will choose between stats and modded tannoys as a compromise. Sonically prefer stats, but as much as I like being an intense audiophile on some days, I don't like being one daily, and might resist stats due to the sweet spot constraint, and go modded tannoys, much easier on the set up. Sure there are some quality cones like Zellaton Stage, YG Hailey, etc, but too expensive. Some of these expensive systems as well as lower priced ones like Anamighty taught me how important it is to avoid the system signature to allow the performances from records to flow through. There are many amps which prevent this, though they sound great with a digital set up. My amp choices are not clear though I have a fair short list. If I go stats or modded tannoys, I will strongly explore Berning Quads as a final amp. The Audio Machina is also a great small speaker that works fantastic with Berning to let performance from records flow through. I think this is more important than creating a scale with the fake bass and stage of many big cones. Tang's system, even if it does not gel well with the room (he had to remove subs and all) prove to me just how superior horns are, and how easy it is to implement them once you have the space. Gian's Italian tour was a brilliant reinforcement of how small speakers should be relative to the room.

Finally, and most importantly, I long ago accepted I have a dual hobby. My own system goals are music, but at the same time I want to scratch gear itch + forum addiction so I try to keep those separate. These sort of gear compares let me do the fast track on the gear hobby.

Pilgrimages lead to surprises - I was expecting Mike's to be a sterile state system, I argued with Bill a lot before visiting the General that the General's records could not possibly make that much of a difference given what Salvatore and Fremer and TAS have on their list - many other surprises that challenged preconceived notions. Marty's DRC is another example. Meeting people philosophically opposed helps keep my own biases from developing, because someone is always knocking it off before it develops

You can see why I was avoiding writing. There is a lot there I am sure I forgot to write or elaborate properly or said something to upset some unintentionally. It is not easy to cover all details. This is expected to be a high level glance at approaches and brands that have caught my attention.

This is one of the best posts you've ever written - thank you, Kedar, for your insights.

Ron stopped by for a session yesterday and we were discussing similar thoughts on vinyl recordings and provenance. When you have a great analog recording on a TT, there are special things occurring. But there is difficulty factor that goes along with it.

 

[bonzo75]

This is one of the best posts you've ever written - thank you, Kedar, for your insights.

Ron stopped by for a session yesterday and we were discussing similar thoughts on vinyl recordings and provenance. When you have a great analog recording on a TT, there are special things occurring. But there is difficulty factor that goes along with it.

Thanks Keith, that must be something as my count shows I have written over 8000 fantastic posts before

 

[KeithR]

And as I tell friends who are leaning to getting in the analog game - save the most money for the records themselves. The analog rig tends to be the inexpensive part!

 

[asiufy]

Duos are half cones, especially in the woofers. Not horns. Like Liszts.

Depends. The Duos we had were good up to 140Hz on the horns. We've had the Duo Mezzos for a while too, and that had folded bass horns. i don't subscribe to the "100% horns or it isn't a horn" thing. You can get a pretty good dose of "horn goodness" even out of the Avantgarde Zero TA. And, as I said, I've clients with Trios that only listen to rock, and enjoy it immensely.

And you mention the Cessaros. Well, I haven't heard a Cessaro that I like more than even that ol' pair of Duos we had in the store. So there's that.

It's obvious we hear differently, and that's fine. I just felt like posting as a counterpoint to "no rock on horns", as that goes against what I've experienced personally, and through my friends/clients.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, I wouldn't have bothered w Jimmy. Have you heard the recent Zep reissues, remastered by him. Evidence he has totally lost his hearing.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I guess he could have visited a Starbucks in Seattle.

 

[asiufy]

You didn't like the recent high-res remasters? I thought they were pretty good. The *previous* remasters that Jimmy did where nowhere as good, quite bright in fact...

 

[spiritofmusic]

Alex, I'm really sensitive to any perceived brightness/hardness in reissues, and the recent 180g LZ catalogue sounds a bit "peaky" to me.

Indeed the only reissues I've liked across the board are the Classic Records Quiex 180g and 200g early 2000s ones. I've picked up a bunch of Genesis albums Classic reissues, and they are warm, expansive and natural, the opposite from any non Classic reissue Zep I've heard.

 

[bazelio]

Nice write-up Kedar. Interestingly, even based on youtube audio, I'd finally decided the Vdh was the best of the three carts (Vdh, Opus1, Atlas SL). The Atlas SL would be my number 2 and might even be number 1 depending on system matching. That said, obviously quite a lot is left to the imagination with these audio files and general detail and tone are really the only aspects I could differentiate. Anything else would require in-person audition at Tang's or short of that, high quality needle drop recordings. (Hint, hint) But, boy, the piano with either the Atlas or Vdh is a noticeable step above IMO.

@spiritofmusic - I have the 200g "Gabriel Years" box set. I'd call it slightly better than mediocre.