Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[Tango]

It doesn't drift and it has no correction! Nothing kills the sound like a feedback loop or servo speed adjustment no matter how minor or how few rotations claimed Bill, that's why DD's always fall short of the best idlers and belt drive turntables. AS's motor is set by adjusting the frequency once for each rpm then the rotation speed remains constant. One of the benefits of high platter mass is inertia so it moves freely with as little input from the motor as possible without wavering so AS's speed is incredibly stable as a system.

The sensor that Tang mentioned is only a tach and is independent from the motor controller.

david

WOW! Just WOW! No feedback loop? No auto-correction? You know I am not really into how it works as long as it works David. So I never asked you about that sensor. And I never thought it was just for the tach. What you said really surprises the hell out of me. Because adjusting the frequency once that was all I did. The tach reading is so damn stable.

Tang

 

[Folsom]

I’ve always wondered, does it have an amp channel for each motor winding?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

It doesn't drift and it has no correction! Nothing kills the sound like a feedback loop or servo speed adjustment no matter how minor or how few rotations claimed Bill, that's why DD's always fall short of the best idlers and belt drive turntables. AS's motor is set by adjusting the frequency once for each rpm then the rotation speed remains constant. One of the benefits of high platter mass is inertia so it moves freely with as little input from the motor as possible without wavering so AS's speed is incredibly stable as a system.

The sensor that Tang mentioned is only a tach and is independent from the motor controller.

david

Thanks David!

 

[Stacore]

Congratulations Tang on your musical system and path evolution! What I've noticed with my own musical taste is that the more advanced the system becomes, the more complex and sophisticated music I enjoy.

Cheers,

This past two weeks I have been advancing my classical music enjoyment into symphony. My head and ears are pretty basic and simple. I don't like too sophisticated, technically wow complicated music. I do like romantic, poetic, emotional and dramatic classical music. Liszt is one of the composers that fit my bill. Here is Georg Solti with L'Orchestre de Paris on Tasso. On second side it has the Memphisto Walz No.1. Great sounding record and music that you can enjoy both sides. This is a Decca SXL 6709. I know that my system is good at chambers but I am only getting to know that it plays symphony pretty damn well too...at least it stopped me from working and drew me to listening to this record until ended.

View attachment 55293

 

[spiritofmusic]

David, I realise my humble rim drive Salvation tt is in exalted company like AS etc. But designer Vic has also thrown out any feedback loop system for speed control. Anything he tried (optical encoder, correcting varying voltage drops as speed varies) inevitably led to harshness/greyness and loss of bass articulation. He has a simple analog control, varies the speed to be checked by strobe or Roadrunner etc, gentle user adjustment every few days as speed drifts over time. Feedback loop/auto correct just never passed muster.

 

[Folsom]

Tang, does your C10-15235-6 has some distorted parts? I don't think it's my stereo... I got a 1976 copy and I'm thinking getting a later one may not have that?

 

[Tango]

Tang, does your C10-15235-6 has some distorted parts? I don't think it's my stereo... I got a 1976 copy and I'm thinking getting a later one may not have that?

What is that c10 152356?

 

[Folsom]

What is that c10 152356?

I thought that would be the east way. I don't type in Russian.

https://www.discogs.com/master/view/786138

 

[Tango]

I thought that would be the east way. I don't type in Russian.

https://www.discogs.com/master/view/786138

Oh . Will listen again and let you know. I dont recall any unusual breakup in highs but let me listen again. I have a few discs that do that to all my arms.

 

[Tango]

Tang, does your C10-15235-6 has some distorted parts? I don't think it's my stereo... I got a 1976 copy and I'm thinking getting a later one may not have that?

I already played with two different arms carts. No distortion spikes. I think I know what distortion you talking about. If there were I would hear it when Gilels bangs on the keyboards and do that 1-2 quick fingers on high notes in Hungarian Rhapsody 2. But it was just good. I have an excellent pressing..only some normal clicks pops. My pressing is 1981 pale white label. You probably are not so lucky.



Excellent record. I highly recommend. It is also great for using to illustrate the difference between American Sound vs EMT927 vs AF1P.

Tang

 

[Folsom]

Well I think that what happened is in 1976 engineer didn’t know how to adjust cutting machine, or the levels were so out of whack that their gear was clipping real bad.

In 1981 the engineer knew what to do and made it sound right.

Yes, it is at parts where he’s going pretty hard at it. It goes quieter and real distorted like in sound. It’s like that in a very high tracking cart and a medium one. The rest of the album sounds great. My copy is very nice but just those couple moments on side 2 I think.

 

[Vienna]

It doesn't drift and it has no correction! Nothing kills the sound like a feedback loop or servo speed adjustment no matter how minor or how few rotations claimed Bill, that's why DD's always fall short of the best idlers and belt drive turntables. AS's motor is set by adjusting the frequency once for each rpm then the rotation speed remains constant. One of the benefits of high platter mass is inertia so it moves freely with as little input from the motor as possible without wavering so AS's speed is incredibly stable as a system.

The sensor that Tang mentioned is only a tach and is independent from the motor controller.

david

Dear David

Thats a very interesting opinion, especially from a designer and manufacturer of such a recognised turntable worldwide.
The moment, that investments are being made by the most turntables' manufacturers to introduce feedback devices for controlling/adjusting the speed.

I would like, and I would appreciate your opinion on a well designed idler or belt turntable as i am in the market for a new turntable and I hate pneumatic systems

 

[microstrip]

Dear David

Thats a very interesting opinion, especially from a designer and manufacturer of such a recognised turntable worldwide.
The moment, that investments are being made by the most turntables' manufacturers to introduce feedback devices for controlling/adjusting the speed.

I would like, and I would appreciate your opinion on a well designed idler or belt turntable as i am in the market for a new turntable and I hate pneumatic systems

Turntables are a personal choice - as they say we have to choose our poison according to our preferences. But IMHO system integration can not be forgotten. Our choices are strongly framed by our systems.

Concerning feedback, people reactions are still dominated by the few cases of poorly implemented designs. And each case is a different case - there is diversity enough in turntable designs to invalidate universal rules. And although I love debating the technical details to please my curiosity and imagination, we need to believe in our own ears, not in pseudo-technical considerations.

 

[ddk]

Hi

Dear David

Thats a very interesting opinion, especially from a designer and manufacturer of such a recognised turntable worldwide.
The moment, that investments are being made by the most turntables' manufacturers to introduce feedback devices for controlling/adjusting the speed.

I would like, and I would appreciate your opinion on a well designed idler or belt turntable as i am in the market for a new turntable and I hate pneumatic systems

Hi Vienna,

What's your budget for the whole thing including arm & cartridge? Are you open to vintage choices?
david

 

[ddk]

Turntables are a personal choice - as they say we have to choose our poison according to our preferences. But IMHO system integration can not be forgotten. Our choices are strongly framed by our systems.

Concerning feedback, people reactions are still dominated by the few cases of poorly implemented designs. And each case is a different case - there is diversity enough in turntable designs to invalidate universal rules. And although I love debating the technical details to please my curiosity and imagination, we need to believe in our own ears, not in pseudo-technical considerations.

The negative effects of feedback loops and servo controllers are easily demonstrable and audible.

david

 

[Vienna]

if the vintage is completely restored like new why not ?

 

[ddk]

if the vintage is completely restored like new why not ?

They can be found in most conditions from junk to mint it depends on budget, If it's more comfortable PM me with your budget.

david

 

[Tango]

Turntables are a personal choice - as they say we have to choose our poison according to our preferences. But IMHO system integration can not be forgotten. Our choices are strongly framed by our systems.

Concerning feedback, people reactions are still dominated by the few cases of poorly implemented designs. And each case is a different case - there is diversity enough in turntable designs to invalidate universal rules. And although I love debating the technical details to please my curiosity and imagination, we need to believe in our own ears, not in pseudo-technical considerations.

Everything is personal choice Micro. Well...except when mother or wife intervene.

Tang

 

[microstrip]

The negative effects of feedback loops and servo controllers are easily demonstrable and audible.

david

Can I ask how do you demonstrate they are negative? We can suppose they are audible if designers consider they improve the sound quality of turntables.

Do you also consider that "the negative effects of feedback loops and servo controllers are easily demonstrable and audible" in capstan tape machines?

 

[ddk]

Can I ask how do you demonstrate they are negative? We can suppose they are audible if designers consider they improve the sound quality of turntables.

Do you also consider that "the negative effects of feedback loops and servo controllers are easily demonstrable and audible" in capstan tape machines?

Some designers want to make their product idiot proof so they use some sort of feedback loop and a pretty display. More often there's a need for some sort of feedback/control system even if there's a sonic penalty, I've seen quite a number of turntables that won't hold speed for various reasons and the easiest way is to introduce a feedback loop. I've never heard anyone claim that the sound improves by using a feedback controller, at best they say that it's inaudible or barely negative.

In case of belt drives and idlers the concept is very easy to demonstrate Francisco with just On or Off! Generally anyone with an average pair of ears and half a brain can hear what a feedback loop does to the sound but sadly the latter seems to be challenging for some.
david