Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[bonzo75]

Yes Mike that is completely understood. But that is a different point from saying racks work, footers don't. To me all these, including cables, are tweaks, and have color. As is grounding. All of them make changes to the sound, whether you like one or not, or want to investigate it or not is a different point. For example I had a lot of interest in isolation, minimal in grounding

 

[awsmone]

Same here. I refuse to put my equipment (placeholder for Christoph to say which equipment ) on anything apart from wood. and Shun Mook is the most natural wood. Next anti-audiophiles will be telling cellists and violinists to not have ebony. And analog people should not use headshells.

I don’t think Ebony makes much contribution to the sound of violins it’s used on fretboard and tuning pegs etc because of wear quality, be interesting to replace with another material though

 

[rockitman]

In my opinion, if you choose your main components, manage electricity and sort out your system well, you dont really need these tweaks to add anything more to your sound. Everything should already be there sufficiently..unless you want to tune it to your liking.

Kind regards,
Tang

A statement of seismic proportion ! I feel the same way save for a few Ultra 5's under my amps/speakers and preamp in it's current configuration. That may change when the system moves.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

In my opinion, if you choose your main components, manage electricity and sort out your system well, you dont really need these tweaks to add anything more to your sound. Everything should already be there sufficiently..unless you want to tune it to your liking.

Kind regards,
Tang

A statement of seismic proportion ! I feel the same way save for a few Ultra 5's under my amps/speakers and preamp in it's current configuration. That may change when the system moves.

i think there is room for various truths about the need/value/benefit of tweaks and exactly where they take you.

if you like things as they are minimally tweaked or un-tweaked then that is right.
if you are curious where tweaks can take you that is right.
if you took things as far as you could, then added tweaks and believe you took otherwise impossible steps forward due to adding those tweaks then that is right.

no absolutes.

 

[sujay]

So why are racks different? He has CMS and Stacore, and Stacore has footers. So either the racks and footers are also doing the same, or all these are just doing their flavors in different ways. Might as well keep everything on the floor otherwise. Or are some racks more neutral than others? The point is, this should have been compared properly to find out which way to go

100% agree. A minimalist approach should not be selective. It should apply throughout the system including components, cables etc

 

[Tango]

Tweaks and most other equipments we talk about in this forum never work uniformly across systems. There is no need for a lover of a product to prove his claim is legit. I never doubt the positive attributes people claimed finding in their system. Having invested a rediculous amount of money in tweaks myself, I enjoyed the positives they have added to my system. However, over time, I also have learned more and more, heard more and more what they shaped off and took away from my system. So, I have been taking them out piece by piece to regain what was lost. Luckily, I happened to be able to retain most positives that these tweak gave me by managing my front end properly. So in sum, I now have a more complete sound with much more musical info with much less homogeneity, plus more correct drive and dynamic that now come from a more musical contrast instead of accentuation.

I really dont object people doing tweaks, experimenting with them. My only advise would be instead of trying hard to hear what good the tweak do to your system (those things are normally easy to hear), put more of your effort trying to hear the bad or what they are taking away from your system. If over time you come to conclusion that you lose nothing, then that is an excellent addition of gear worthwhile keeping. Kedar was putting a good effort defending his beloved Mook by drawing Mook parellel to my Stacore rack and platform. While I still can not say for sure what goodness the Stacore add to my system, I am quite certain they do not take away anything. This is why I am hearing so much in my system since its arrival with the AS2000. But the Mook didnt give me this impression. I am also not a person who like gear that is needed to keep adjusting until it works.

Tang

 

[spiritofmusic]

Tang, I'm certainly open to criticisms of over tweaking. Indeed my big foray onto WBF was 5 years ago, proclaiming Entreq grounding as the big thing in my life. And we all know how long that thread has become.

For me the move to a hugely neutral room and continued increased exposure to live unamplified has challenged what I look for in sound, how I get there, what works and doesn't work. So, I'm v happy w my source components, pretty content w my amps, love/hate re my spkrs.

And re tweaks, I now only stick w them if they aid tonal and timbral discrimination, and allow every lp and cd to sound totally different from the last. I regularly take tweaks out of the system to compare.

So, Entreq is one I've had a major change of heart on, but on balance still enhances a little stage depth and reduction in hash that reveals more of what's on the recording. But it's a close run thing, and given my time again, I wouldn't rush to invest in it as much as I have.

Westwick 8kVA balanced power and Oyaides dedicated lines into Furutech duplexes are totally beneficial, consistently less cold and terse than the system plugged into the domestic mains. "After midnight sound 24/7" is ticked off here.

Sablon cables, well I'll never convince the "Pricey power cords? You're joking, yes?" crowd, but tone and timbre are so well reproduced, differently disc to disc, compared to cheaper cords I still having hanging around.

Stacore platform under my tt? Years of underachievement relative to digital addressed in a major way, again every lp sounds different to the next, a previously non Stacored homogenous spread out average sound has now been converted via Stacored magic into many absolute gems, and quite a few clunkers.

Symposium rack and Rollerblocks certainly the most cost effective supports for the rest of my system, way more neutral and delicate than any alternative of Mooks or Stillpoints.

And lastly RevOPods under my Zus, in conjunction w Panzerholz, v much like Stacore, truly allows each piece of music to sound individual, contrast between discs heightened. And in comparison to IsoAcoustic Gaias, these failing in the same fashion as Mooks, ie initially beguiling but in the end, cloying.

So, I think I'm confident in knowing where tweaks bring value added, where they're borderline, and where they can be euphonic but ultimately hampering.

 

[Tango]

The feet of components are horrible. There are 3 - 4 of them sitting directly on the rack. Anyway we disagree. And the General's room is most mooked and has the best recordings with more variation than people are aware of (originating from more lathes, cutters, labels then the forum together would know of) and all recordings show through with total transparency.

Have you listened to the General's system without the Mooks? If you have which I think you have not, you might hear something positive too. And I could throw in a stupid outrageous speculation just for the sake of argument that his speakers or amps were lacking something or at least not sufficient to him thats why the Mooks were added. The speculation and arguments can go on and on. But thats what we like in this forum right?

Tang

 

[spiritofmusic]

Tang, a big part of the deep respect Ked shows for me was telling me how wrong I was in finding that Mooks worked for the sound of my rig in my old room, but not here in the new room.

Yes, according to Ked I hadn't installed them correctly, used them w the wrong sized gear, hadn't aligned the dots correctly, despite no derision from him when they appeared to work under the selfsame gear previously.

I hope he's expressing the same respect for you saying you by definition got it wrong too.

 

[Solypsa]

I guess I've been there and back. Never owned a system as highend as Tang, never had the vinyl of the General. But I did find 'hifi' at an early age (13 or so). I swallowed the audiophile rhetoric completely. Later I got into studio production. I ran a vinyl mastering studio. I forsake the audiophile tweak rhetoric completely. Now I approach cabling and 'tweaks" very very cautiously. In general i align with Tang's sentiment's. Attention to detail is Paramount. What details is the real topic. ...

 

[Tango]

Tang, a big part of the deep respect Ked shows for me was telling me how wrong I was in finding that Mooks worked for the sound of my rig in my old room, but not here in the new room.

Yes, according to Ked I hadn't installed them correctly, used them w the wrong sized gear, hadn't aligned the dots correctly, despite no derision from him when they appeared to work under the selfsame gear previously.

I hope he's expressing the same respect for you saying you by definition got it wrong too.

Hi Marc,

Ked did not have a chance to set the Mooks properly in my system. What I said about them was just the impression of what I heard as was, certainly not a conclusion. Great thing about Ked is he picks up sound quickly and he is true to what he hear even when he hear somthing contradict to his past belief. He is fair imo.

Tang

 

[bonzo75]

Tang, a big part of the deep respect Ked shows for me was telling me how wrong I was in finding that Mooks worked for the sound of my rig in my old room, but not here in the new room.

Yes, according to Ked I hadn't installed them correctly, used them w the wrong sized gear, hadn't aligned the dots correctly, despite no derision from him when they appeared to work under the selfsame gear previously.

I hope he's expressing the same respect for you saying you by definition got it wrong too.

Marc, to start with I didn't say he got it wrong. I said he didn't try it and believed one thing (racks) work, and the other thing (footers) is a color.

Two, I got forwarded this - your system pics from FB, by some other people pointing out mooks are incorrectly aligned. I have never been to this room, and hadn't seen this until now, but this confirms my guess turned out right.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1982714188657691/permalink/2121123888150053/

 

[bonzo75]

Have you listened to the General's system without the Mooks? If you have which I think you have not, you might hear something positive too. And I could throw in a stupid outrageous speculation just for the sake of argument that his speakers or amps were lacking something or at least not sufficient to him thats why the Mooks were added. The speculation and arguments can go on and on. But thats what we like in this forum right?

Tang

The point is all the vinyl comes through with differences, not color. I haven't compared with or without, he has. I don't doubt your ears where you compare Tang, and if you told me the rack is not colored, the mooks are, after doing proper compares like you do with carts or phono, I will believe you. But those proper compares have not happened.

 

[bonzo75]

I guess I've been there and back. Never owned a system as highend as Tang, never had the vinyl of the General. But I did find 'hifi' at an early age (13 or so). I swallowed the audiophile rhetoric completely. Later I got into studio production. I ran a vinyl mastering studio. I forsake the audiophile tweak rhetoric completely. Now I approach cabling and 'tweaks" very very cautiously. In general i align with Tang's sentiment's. Attention to detail is Paramount. What details is the real topic. ...

It's amazing what people can judge as audiophile tweak and as natural tweak without listening. As we all know, no turntable, cart, or amp is colored.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Oh well, photographic evidence. The camera never lies. Only the ear does LOL. Or is that the brain? Biases?

Yes, I know those dots mean a whole lot.

They worked out pretty well in London. But if I'm going to be told that those dots made the difference in them not working here, well it is what it is. What it is, is up to people to decide.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The feet of components are horrible. There are 3 - 4 of them sitting directly on the rack. Anyway we disagree. And the General's room is most mooked and has the best recordings with more variation than people are aware of (originating from more lathes, cutters, labels then the forum together would know of) and all recordings show through with total transparency.

This is interesting. I did not know the general’s room is heavily Mooked. Does the general use Mooks only under components, or does he also use those freestanding or wall-mounted Mook things?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Peter said this definitional point and practical point last week and I agree with him:

Peter sought to distinguish tweaks which make commissions versus tweaks which make omissions.

All platforms, CLD racks, footers are tweaks. We don’t like tweaks that add something sonically and homogenize all recordings a little bit, or alter the frequency response of most or all recordings. But if an isolation platform removes a sonic veil (an omission) and increases transparency across all recordings then we think that is a good tweak.

 

[bonzo75]

This is interesting. I did not know the general’s room is heavily Mooked. Does the general use Mooks only under components, or does he also use those freestanding or wall-mounted Mook things?

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/kind-regards-and-salutations-to-all.25258/#post-505402

The whole rack. Also the thing in the middle of the horn

 

[bonzo75]

Peter said this definitional point and practical point last week and I agree with him:

Peter sought to distinguish tweaks which make commissions versus tweaks which make omissions.

All platforms, CLD racks, footers are tweaks. We don’t like tweaks that add something sonically and homogenize all recordings a little bit, or alter the frequency response of most or all recordings. But if an isolation platform removes a sonic veil (an omission) and increases transparency across all recordings then we think that is a good tweak.

I agree, but then you need to compare all the platforms. Also should omitting something, it should not also omit something positive and add something negative

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you for the link to that thread. Yes, I see the general is all-in for Mooking!