Zu loudspeakers

[morricab]

Marc I find the SET with both the Pap horns and the Harbeth 40.2s just goes straight for the performance. I find it leaves me more aware of when the musical performance isn’t good more so than just if the recording itself isn’t good. Getting a full bodied bass extension and a mid bass rightness with the horns has made for me the difference. The various upgrades to crossover and internal wiring has made them even more true. But what is bringing it all together is really the SET amp with the Zotl pre combo.

So, you are finding SET is fully compatible with your Harbeths? I have found, through much experimentation, that I found good SET improves the sound of most speakers. It sounded heavenly with my electrostats and on a number of "no no" speakers for this kind of amp. I just laughed at the naysayers because they weren't hearing what I was hearing and weren't even willing to put their preconceived notions on the side to try!

 

[morricab]

Tao, pulling off some of that trick here too. So often I hear uber audiophiles and top line reviewers saying that the performance uptick in the best gear makes so many "average" recordings unlistenable or too challenging.

What an absolute curse. Spend ALL that cash on bleeding edge components, only to find so many recordings have their pants pulled down to be exposed.

No, way better is the SETs/spkr synergy that reveals a more holistic quality in music reproduction that, yes, more recordings sound more distinct from each other, but not a greater number are less enjoyable.

Up the absolute ecstasy rating on those recordings that get it right, but spread greater joy over much of the rest. Challenging listens should still be a small minority even w the best setups.

SETs achieve this way better than SS, imho.

I notice that this 213cobra has now given up his SETs for the new Druid 6 claiming that SET can't handle bass below 35hz or so. All this tells me is that HIS Audio SETs, which don't have particularly beefy output iron, were not adequate but that some of the newer more massive designs would be just fine with those speakers. In fact, with a few SETs I know I would never, ever consider PP tube amp bass to be superior (its not and is often mushier) and even SS bass is worse (more one note and overdamped).

I have not heard a single PP tube amp that can compete with a good SET in terms of wholistic musical response and even digging into details. I would only consider an OTL as a viable alternative and even then the tonal balance is too "cold" in many cases. Now, an Aries Cerat SET OTL would be something to hear... ...I haven't had the pleasure yet.

 

[KeithR]

I notice that this 213cobra has now given up his SETs for the new Druid 6 claiming that SET can't handle bass below 35hz or so. All this tells me is that HIS Audio SETs, which don't have particularly beefy output iron, were not adequate but that some of the newer more massive designs would be just fine with those speakers. In fact, with a few SETs I know I would never, ever consider PP tube amp bass to be superior (its not and is often mushier) and even SS bass is worse (more one note and overdamped).

Yes, we know - SETs always win.

Too bad Phil's owned and had more SETs pass through his room than you understand - and yes, he's had your beloved KRs on numerous occasions. Unfortunately you are shooting arrows against something you haven't even heard while he has taken months to formulate a decision based on real listening that was counter to his original viewpoint (he's a bonified SET fan). I listen when people do that.

 

[caesar]

Do you think that cubic inches plays into it as well. The US has produced some of the biggest wattage amps for both tube and SS.

Also the trend has been towards speakers that can then perform well in terms of measurement. Not saying this is the only reason but the seeming poor value of small watt based SET with accompanying relatively high amounts of THD was also not always embraced in many contemporary ‘advanced’ tech based countries. The renaissance of SET and horn especially is for me a reaction to more analytical objective frames of reference and perhaps a return to primarily exploring music rather than celebrating objective sonic prowess. As digital evolves and streaming frees up musical access the notion of not just playing what music you have in the room at the time but also being able to explore out to the very edges of the boundaries of recorded music whatever and whenever. Vintage, contemporary, vast vaults of recorded music history are open to explore instantly.

Horns and SET make all the distinctions fall away and just leave you with music. Great horns and SET is so not about warm and fuzzy. It is exciting and liberating. It is grainless, effortless and unified and clear like absolute pristine clean water and then combined with either great analogue or digital is then focussed just on musical connection and freedom. SET for me is the great format equaliser and the boundaries for bliss tend to open up not close down. You look for the music and not the limits to it.

In the USA, the magazines that do most of the marketing in high end audio, celebrate Magico and Wilson as the best. Every technological development these companies make is celebrated.

Yet these brands are virtually unlistenable with solid state. CAT is the only amp that can really drive magico and make it sound like like music vs an analytical disaster, and Wilson owners frequently use BIG VTLs.

Other tube amps make these speakers sound syrupy, with no grip, no balls. Pathetically colored. No wonder tube amps get a bad reputation. Count me in the camp of guys who "don't like tubes". And I don't like tubes as shown in the USA. The only exception to CAT are audio research 75 amp on easy to drive speakers like NOLA and Scaena. Pretty sad!!!!

Virtually no one talks about SETs in the USA, but boy do they sound right on proper speakers!

 

[caesar]

Yes, we know - SETs always win.

Too bad Phil's owned and had more SETs pass through his room than you understand - and yes, he's had your beloved KRs on numerous occasions. Unfortunately you are shooting arrows against something you haven't even heard while he has taken months to formulate a decision based on real listening that was counter to his original viewpoint (he's a bonified SET fan). I listen when people do that.

It may be very speaker specific, as it always in audio. And, of course, personal preference matters also.

 

[caesar]

I notice that this 213cobra has now given up his SETs for the new Druid 6 claiming that SET can't handle bass below 35hz or so. All this tells me is that HIS Audio SETs, which don't have particularly beefy output iron, were not adequate but that some of the newer more massive designs would be just fine with those speakers. In fact, with a few SETs I know I would never, ever consider PP tube amp bass to be superior (its not and is often mushier) and even SS bass is worse (more one note and overdamped).

I have not heard a single PP tube amp that can compete with a good SET in terms of wholistic musical response and even digging into details. I would only consider an OTL as a viable alternative and even then the tonal balance is too "cold" in many cases. Now, an Aries Cerat SET OTL would be something to hear... ...I haven't had the pleasure yet.

I agree with you on the PP, but those Audions and single driver Druid 5 are insanely musical for soul, rock, blues, pop, etc.

But Different speaker, different result.

And I also wonder about the room

 

[caesar]

I find your characterizations of why horns aren't more popular in America based more on a bunch of tropes than real information. While it is harder to get a good integrated sound from a horn in theory, in practice there are a number of companies out there now that do an excellent job. It is more demanding to build them correctly and drivers tend to be more expensive so there are fewer designers doing them. Let's never forget though that JBL is alive and well but abandoned horns for the home market a long time ago (some of the best all-time horn speakers came from the 50s-80s JBL designers). Altec (RIP) was a great American brand that made excellent sound speakers. Ever hear a 604 duplex in a proper cabinet? I would take that over a Zu whatever any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Not to say that Zu is bad, its not but it is also not breaking new ground...finally improving to a proper high end sound I would say (no I don't consider the older Zu stuff as worthy).

IMO, the real reason for their general lack of popularity amongst American audiophiles is marketing and magazines. They pushed the low sensitivity/high power narrative for a long time and hard that horns were bad and from that old bygone era where power was scarce so you HAD to have a horn. What they failed to mention (and what old people apparently forgot) was that those systems sounded GOOD! Of course most were found in theaters so people didn't really know very well what they were hearing but the well-heeled audiophile from the early 1960s could have a JBL Hartsfield in the corner or Paragon console, powered by some McIntosh or Marantz tubes and be getting, even by today's standards, world class sound. There is a reason why these systems bring 30-50K on the used market and it's not nostalgia.

FWIW, the Japanese audiophiles never really bought this marketing campaign and they gobbled up JBLs, Altecs, Tannoys etc. and their rooms are REALLY small in general...so much for the horns not working in small rooms. Europeans woke up in the 90s, especially the Germans, which is why you have quite a few from that country now...America is just behind the curve a bit with the whole Horn + SET thing...

The market right now is flooded with amplifiers that are more or less suitable for horns (everything you wrote on Audiogon about inexpensive chinese amps and not so inexpensive Audion, etc.) and most of this is also available in America. Americans have grown up on a diet of Wilson, Audio Research etc. that doesn't lend itself to particular presentation that makes horns to many sound more like life and less like hifi.

You also fail to consider that horns can work better actually in a challenged room specifically because of their higher directionality as compared to conventional speakers. so what you are saying regarding the horns and rooms doesn't really fly when looked at closely. The one area where the horn may suffer in a lossy room is bass and this is where European makes, with their stout concrete and brick rooms, may come across as lean in an American home (and American speakers can sound bloated over here). Close to walls? Again higher directionality reduces sidewall reflections as compared to the Harman school of wide, even dispersion that interacts heavily with the walls, floor and ceiling. Dipole line source speakers can work even better in tight spaces (contrary to conventional "wisdom") because that first side wall reflection and the ceiling/floor bounces are minimized but horns do just fine in smaller rooms (I know I have been there/done that and very successfully.)

As to the augmented widebander, which is the Druid, I have nothing in principle with this philosophy and I have a pair of good sounding widebanders myself (Decware HDTs, which are being augmented with a Beyma CP350Ti compression driver). So, I know about the coherence to which you preach (All my full-range electrostats were also essentially single widebanders). That said, I know of some horn systems that have equally good coherence (or at least I, even with my sensitivities in this direction, do not hear obvious discontinuities) and do far better when the music gets messy.

As to Zu providing something you couldn't get elsewhere...well I am not sure how hard you tried to look beyond American brands to find out...

Hi Morricab,
Thank you for your perspective. Very interesting post! To me, the unique selling proposition of Zu is that emotion conveyed via a single driver, and an ability to have mediocre recordings of Alligator and Delmark blues and crappy rock recordings sound like nothing I have ever heard. And nothing at that price point.

I admit I am experientially impoverished when it comes to horns due to the marketing practices we have talked about above. It's a shame one has to travel to Europe or Asia to experience something like that, but it is what it is. So which brands of horns do you recommend that have that "single-driver type" integration and can really bring the emotion out of blues, soul, and rock (while not sounding syrupy)?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Caesar, you might want to check out the Pnoe horns w BD5 full range driver. Mid 30s Hz to well over 20k. No crossover. Even more minimalist than the Zus, yet a whole different proposition. I've heard them once, and the upbeat tracks I listened to were pretty impressive. The more purist classical and jazz were highly listenable too.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Caesar, your posts along w SETDrugs' have been a bit therapeutic for me (me and Phil go back a few years on Agon). I've plowed a bit of a lonely furrow on WBF extolling their virtues with very little return enthusiam, indeed until this thread, none at all. And Zus retain their ability to polarise more than a few other brands I can mention.

Throw in certain struggles I've had to fully dial in their sub bass, and radically different presentations I experience when visiting others, and I've had my fair share of wobbling re ownership.

But when I hear you encapsulate the Zu ethos so well in yr phrase highlighting Zu's ability to cut thru to the essential musical spirit, even on poor recordings, you say it better than I ever could.

What I'm particularly happy about atm is that I've managed to refine my sound so much that aspects of presentation that were possibly lacking in the past have really come along, and it's really opened up my enjoyment and appreciation of jazz and classical, both stellar pressings/performances (hello Ked), and lesser ones ('bye Ked).

 

[morricab]

I agree with you on the PP, but those Audions and single driver Druid 5 are insanely musical for soul, rock, blues, pop, etc.

But Different speaker, different result.

And I also wonder about the room

I never challenged the sonic quality of his Audions, I challenged his assertion about bass depth and control possibility with SET. It seems in this regard his Audions were weak compared to a number of SETs I know well. FWIW, we did a shootout between the big CAT JL2 sig vs. the NAT SE2SE (same model as Spirit but older version) on Apogee Grands no less and the NAT was the clear winner...also on bass (we were running the panel part fullrange with passive cover). That NAT is a beast!

 

[spiritofmusic]

The Nat is indeed a beast Brad, I go all weak kneed in it's presence.

 

[the sound of Tao]

So, you are finding SET is fully compatible with your Harbeths? I have found, through much experimentation, that I found good SET improves the sound of most speakers. It sounded heavenly with my electrostats and on a number of "no no" speakers for this kind of amp. I just laughed at the naysayers because they weren't hearing what I was hearing and weren't even willing to put their preconceived notions on the side to try!

Brad the SET on the horns is that no brainer literally. Obvious match, no thinking required and none likely when playing music either.

After 6 months of getting to know the horn SET combo I believe now I am starting to get it’s measure. A few more things I will work through to pull it into where I hope to take it. In some ways it reminds me of the challenge of the Maggies in that it essentially did magic but the challenge is just eeking that out and making for a more full mid bass balance and extend the bottom end in a way that also doesn’t essentially unbalance and untopple the magic.

With the Harbeths eeking our the bottom end is not required at all. I am finding that the SET I have on 40.2s is authoritive and just very right. I get how Marc is committed to his NAT and how the marriage with his Zus is a long term one.

The 50 watts sits on the lower end of being just being enough power (as the Harbys aren’t in the same efficiency area code as the Zus) but it is not missing any driver control or anything. The switch back to bigger SS requires such an essential trade off that I may not even set it up with an option for both but I will see on that later.

As I am running in both speakers in the same system but will shortly give them to two separate spaces so may likely just get in another SET now... not what I was expecting to do at all but I’ve finally found an amp that really does it all for me.

 

[the sound of Tao]

In the USA, the magazines that do most of the marketing in high end audio, celebrate Magico and Wilson as the best. Every technological development these companies make is celebrated.

Yet these brands are virtually unlistenable with solid state. CAT is the only amp that can really drive magico and make it sound like like music vs an analytical disaster, and Wilson owners frequently use BIG VTLs.

Other tube amps make these speakers sound syrupy, with no grip, no balls. Pathetically colored. No wonder tube amps get a bad reputation. Count me in the camp of guys who "don't like tubes". And I don't like tubes as shown in the USA. The only exception to CAT are audio research 75 amp on easy to drive speakers like NOLA and Scaena. Pretty sad!!!!

Virtually no one talks about SETs in the USA, but boy do they sound right on proper speakers!

Caesar, I was surprised at the SET Harbeth combo being as strong and as right as it is. I’ve always seen both sides of the tube SS divide as always being something of a compromise and only with the smaller signals in preamps had I felt the swing clearly then purely in favour of valve.

Good SET appropriately paired with the right matching speakers is a lasting solution for me.

 

[christoph]

Brad the SET on the horns is that no brainer literally. Obvious match, no thinking required and none likely when playing music either.

After 6 months of getting to know the horn SET combo I believe now I am starting to get it’s measure. A few more things I will work through to pull it into where I hope to take it. In some ways it reminds me of the challenge of the Maggies in that it essentially did magic but the challenge is just eeking that out and making for a more full mid bass balance and extend the bottom end in a way that also doesn’t essentially unbalance and untopple the magic.

With the Harbeths eeking our the bottom end is not required at all. I am finding that the SET I have on 40.2s is authoritive and just very right. I get how Marc is committed to his NAT and how the marriage with his Zus is a long term one.

The 50 watts sits on the lower end of being just being enough power (as the Harbys aren’t in the same efficiency area code as the Zus) but it is not missing any driver control or anything. The switch back to bigger SS requires such an essential trade off that I may not even set it up with an option for both but I will see on that later.

As I am running in both speakers in the same system but will shortly give them to two separate spaces so may likely just get in another SET now... not what I was expecting to do at all but I’ve finally found an amp that really does it all for me.

Hi Tao

I couldn't agree more with you regarding SET vs. other topologies.
Even on my Apogee Studio Grands I prefer my SET amps over my Lamm M 1.1 hybrids.
I bought the Lamms for my 1 Ohm Apogee Scintillas (as there is obviously no real world tube alternative) and there they produce the best Sound I achieved with any amp I tried (and I tried a LOT).
I pretty confident the Lamms would also sing wonderfully with your big Maggies

 

[spiritofmusic]

Graham, the numbers certainly don't look like SETs would work on Harbeths. The proof is in the pudding, as the saying goes.

I'm still facinated how you reconcile enjoying both them and the PAP Horns in almost equally glowing terms.

Is it that some genres or productions naturally gravitate to the horns or the cones, and you'll choose which to listen to depending on what album you select?

Or is it that both sets of spkrs do 90% superlatively, but neither does 100%, and the 10% that the PAPs maybe lack on is covered by the Harbeths, and vice versa?

Which then either means the decision to listening to one set of spkrs over the other is dictated by the choice of music, or the spkrs.

Or I'm thinking this thru too much, and they're just both fantastic playing music, in their own individual ways. End of.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Hi Tao

I couldn't agree more with you regarding SET vs. other topologies.
Even on my Apogee Studio Grands I prefer my SET amps over my Lamm M 1.1 hybrids.
I bought the Lamms for my 1 Ohm Apogee Scintillas (as there is obviously no real world tube alternative) and there they produce the best Sound I achieved with any amp I tried (and I tried a LOT).
I pretty confident the Lamms would also sing wonderfully with your big Maggies

Hi Christoph,
I’d love some Lamms! Sigh.

At some stage I’m going to have to get more real world and get myself down to two sets of speakers... and the Maggies are technically the best speaker sonically and the Pap horns are clearly the best speaker musically with the Harbeth 40.2s sitting somewhere in the middle.

In the end it may simply come down to SET suitability to make the final decision.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Graham, the numbers certainly don't look like SETs would work on Harbeths. The proof is in the pudding, as the saying goes.

I'm still facinated how you reconcile enjoying both them and the PAP Horns in almost equally glowing terms.

Is it that some genres or productions naturally gravitate to the horns or the cones, and you'll choose which to listen to depending on what album you select?

Or is it that both sets of spkrs do 90% superlatively, but neither does 100%, and the 10% that the PAPs maybe lack on is covered by the Harbeths, and vice versa?

Which then either means the decision to listening to one set of spkrs over the other is dictated by the choice of music, or the spkrs.

Or I'm thinking this thru too much, and they're just both fantastic playing music, in their own individual ways. End of.

Marc my mate with the Animas also has Harbeth 40.2s... I txtd him today to say I’d swapped back again to the big red boxes (Harbeth 40.2s) and while I was concerned since upgrading the horn crossover that the switch back would fall flat. But here I am really loving the Harbeths.

There are definitely recordings that the Harbys with SET beautifully render while the 20.7s and Pap horns (slightly less so) might leave a touch uncomfortably just a bit exposed. Tonight I’m listening to Joni Mitchell Blue and while the Maggies always uncover just a bit too much in this recording the Harbys sail through it and I’m just loving Joni.

I wonder if music maybe mastered in vintage times are best showcased with vintage gear. Whereas music recorded in studios where Brit monitors like the big Harbys give you a better view of what the engineer would have mixed down with.

Certainly both are fantastic musically. They do give you very differing perceptual experiences. The paps mesmerise like the Maggies. The big happy Harby boxes win you over with their positivity and joyous glass half fullness.

 

[morricab]

Brad the SET on the horns is that no brainer literally. Obvious match, no thinking required and none likely when playing music either.

After 6 months of getting to know the horn SET combo I believe now I am starting to get it’s measure. A few more things I will work through to pull it into where I hope to take it. In some ways it reminds me of the challenge of the Maggies in that it essentially did magic but the challenge is just eeking that out and making for a more full mid bass balance and extend the bottom end in a way that also doesn’t essentially unbalance and untopple the magic.

With the Harbeths eeking our the bottom end is not required at all. I am finding that the SET I have on 40.2s is authoritive and just very right. I get how Marc is committed to his NAT and how the marriage with his Zus is a long term one.

The 50 watts sits on the lower end of being just being enough power (as the Harbys aren’t in the same efficiency area code as the Zus) but it is not missing any driver control or anything. The switch back to bigger SS requires such an essential trade off that I may not even set it up with an option for both but I will see on that later.

As I am running in both speakers in the same system but will shortly give them to two separate spaces so may likely just get in another SET now... not what I was expecting to do at all but I’ve finally found an amp that really does it all for me.

These were ultimately my findings as well that a good SET essentially made all speakers simply sound better. I was pairing KR audio amps with speakers that conventional wisdom said no way it should work...yet it did. Now, I see the same thing with Aries Cerat and have heard that with NAT as well and to some degree Ayon too. Not all SETs do amazing with lower sensitivity speakers though. My otherwise excellent sounding JJ322 does not like speakers below 92 dB or so and only with easy loads. On paper it is not much behind my AC Genus (20 vs 25 watts) but in practice worlds apart. Genus made mincemeat of a tiny pair of Boenicke W5se speakers (83db) at our last show. People couldn’t believe what they were hearing. JJ can’t do this ( I tried and it failed). I know your LM amp and it is good but there are even better out there for not insane money. I encourage you to have a look.

 

[morricab]

Hi Christoph,
I’d love some Lamms! Sigh.

At some stage I’m going to have to get more real world and get myself down to two sets of speakers... and the Maggies are technically the best speaker sonically and the Pap horns are clearly the best speaker musically with the Harbeth 40.2s sitting somewhere in the middle.

In the end it may simply come down to SET suitability to make the final decision.

I found picking speakers to suit SET to be more rewarding musically than vice versa.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Brad, take it up w Ked. For him it's spkrs first, then whatever amp drives them best.