Zu loudspeakers

Ron, how long did you live in the UK?
I thought you got to love warm beer and said " 'allo guv'nor " to all and sundry.
Skip = rubbish tip.
 
Ron has had a few at his house.
 
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Hi Cobra,
Thanks for the write-up!

I do have a few questions for you...

But first, a personal bias: I think Druid 5 with a basic Audion integrated SET is incredible in an average room in a regular house or apartment. Put that same system into a well-treated room, and it's as incredible as any speaker out there for rock, soul, pop, and blues. People who listen to that type of music won't find anything better regardless of price.

1. To me, the major value of the Zu brand is that one can take any "crappy" or "average" blues, soul, pop, or rock recording, play it and it will bring forth the emotion of the music.

Does the new Druid 6 take that away? Does it become a Magico/ Spectral type of a setup, where all one now hears with the Druid 6 is the analytical detail noises - instead of the music? I was actually just listening to Hound Dog Taylor this weekend. Is the Druid 6 able to convey the musical interplay of Hound Dog and Brewer Phillips of that mediocre recording, or do the noise artifacts dominate and render it unlistenable? You seem to mention that Sean Casey is able to separate out the "garbage" in his favorite "mediocre" recordings. I wonder if it will be the same for others also, or if they go (or stay) with the Druid 5.

2. What is the dispersion pattern for the FRD? Wide or narrow?

3. What is the ideal setup for the Druid 6? What is the distance from the side walls? From the wall behind the speakers? listening distance from the speaker? And how is this different from the Druid 5?

4. What is an ideal sized room?

5. And finally, why do Zu sound so incredible with electric guitars?

Thank you
 
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Caesar, I've gone thru two iterations of my Definitions, the 2 and now the 4, the latter w Duelunds and Lundahls upgrades. Each step has yielded greater fidelity while losing none of the core DNA. That makes Sean Casey one of the greats, IMHO.

I believe if you read btwn Phil's words this is the case on the new Druids, but maybe there is a greater emphasis on needing to get partnering gear right a little more carefully, because the end result is so much greater.
 
Caesar, I've gone thru two iterations of my Definitions, the 2 and now the 4, the latter w Duelunds and Lundahls upgrades. Each step has yielded greater fidelity while losing none of the core DNA. That makes Sean Casey one of the greats, IMHO.

I believe if you read btwn Phil's words this is the case on the new Druids, but maybe there is a greater emphasis on needing to get partnering gear right a little more carefully, because the end result is so much greater.

Hi Spirit,
Maybe so. But he did mention that they sell both Druid 5 and 6 - because they are different.

I recently heard Druid 5 with Audion Golden Dream, which is much better than my Silver Night, in an SMT room. For rock, pop, blues, and soul, I can't imagine anything better for conveying emotions. I am completely serious. Put on King Curtis and listened to many of his albums for 3 hours straight!!! Just him!!!! Couldn't stop listening! Just sipping some liquid gold - anejo tequila. No foreign substances involved, I swear. Before moving on to other artists...

But, hey, this is a subjective hobby. :)
 
Hi Cobra,
Thanks for the write-up!

I do have a few questions for you...

But first, a personal bias: I think Druid 5 with a basic Audion integrated SET is incredible in an average room in a regular house or apartment. Put that same system into a well-treated room, and it's as incredible as any speaker out there for rock, soul, pop, and blues. People who listen to that type of music won't find anything better regardless of price.

1. To me, the major value of the Zu brand is that one can take any "crappy" or "average" blues, soul, pop, or rock recording, play it and it will bring forth the emotion of the music.

Does the new Druid 6 take that away? Does it become a Magico/ Spectral type of a setup, where all one now hears with the Druid 6 is the analytical detail noises - instead of the music? I was actually just listening to Hound Dog Taylor this weekend. Is the Druid 6 able to convey the musical interplay of Hound Dog and Brewer Phillips of that mediocre recording, or do the noise artifacts dominate and render it unlistenable? You seem to mention that Sean Casey is able to separate out the "garbage" in his favorite "mediocre" recordings. I wonder if it will be the same for others also, or if they go (or stay) with the Druid 5.

2. What is the dispersion pattern for the FRD? Wide or narrow?

3. What is the ideal setup for the Druid 6? What is the distance from the side walls? From the wall behind the speakers? listening distance from the speaker? And how is this different from the Druid 5?

4. What is an ideal sized room?

5. And finally, why do Zu sound so incredible with electric guitars?

Thank you

Caesar,

Since you are both already knowledgeable about Druid 5 / Audion SET sound, and are enthusiastic about what you hear, Druid 6 will give you more of everything. But that means more tone density, more dynamic shove, more agility, more transparency, more intimacy, more emotional projection, along with deeper bass response. Druid 6 does not tilt toward analytical. Music is first and I think the artifacts of a poor recording are reproduced in the same ratio to the true tone you want to hear as in Druid 5. But D6 in giving you more of what you want to hear, and keeping the artifacts:music ratio similar, cannot suppress the artifacts. They get elevated proportionately. Different listeners may or are likely to respond differently to this, or as likely it's just something you notice early and process as a new normal. Druid 6 is still a bursty, fun, emotionally-projecting speaker but it resolves more nuance and sounds more dynamically sensitive with more powerful surges. It doesn't become Magico-like in any way but the net result is that given what it can reveal, upstream gear may need adjustment.

Most controversial for someone like you is my conclusion that you will not get the bass reproduction right with SET driving Druid 6. With Druid 5, Audion Golden Dreams are sublime, and I have had a pair driving my succession of Druids since 2005. I recently sold them because the deeper bass response of Druid 6 shows too many faults of zero-NFB SET bass characteristics. I had my Golden Dreams running the best bass tube available, the KR 300B balloon glass, and still. Druid 6 bass response is just deep enough to put an SET amp into bloat city down low. This is true as well with the better-bass Audion Black Shadow 845 SET amp. Now, if you are insensitive to a fat-bottom sonic foundation, maybe the effect will seem euphonic for you. I embarked on trials of a succession of single-ended pentode and push-pull triode amps to get around the problem and both fix the SET bass bloat problem on Druid 6 nicely.

As I mentioned, some people will be happy staying with Druid 5, and they are much less cash anyway. You have to look at Druid 6 as a speaker with all the same Zu-brand and Druid-brand attributes but significantly advanced for the form factor with some likely consequences to choice of mated gear.

Dispersion.
The Druid 6 is the most scaled Druid yet for soundstaging. In my room D6 sounds like the FRD horizontal dispersion is 15 - 20% wider. The total image scale is nearly as good as the v1 Definition. D6 is the first Druid I consider sufficiently scaled for big movie sound, and full symphony orchestra. Or anything else you ever thought was a little too large for a Druid.

Setup.
If anything, Druid 6 is less fussy all around. I am of the audio school that says hifi has to live in your surroundings, your surroundings shouldn't have to live with your hifi. Put another way, the audio system placement ideals should not compromise the function of a room. And to that I'll add I am against dedicated listening rooms. This is one thing that's drastically shrunk the constituency for hifi. I like to see hifi systems out in the open in the normal living areas of the house. That said, you will want at least 16" of space behind the speaker and 18" beside it. My Druid 6 system is on the narrow wall of an 11.5' x 24' room, in an open plan house. Considering toe-in, I have 20" between the wall behind and the closest corner of the Druid cabinet to it, and the right speaker-to-sidewall distance is 24". The left speaker is not bounded by a nearby wall. My Druid 1>4, 5 and 6 all end up in the same spot. No difference.

Ideal room.
No Druid has been a fussy speaker in this respect. It is one of the easiest speakers to place. Druid 6 can load a bigger room because of its projection scale, however. My Definition 4 system is in a 20.5' x 14' space, partially unbounded. Druid 6 is the first Druid I would be fully satisfied using in that room, where big movie sound, full orchestra and other scaled music are generally heard. What Druid will do that Definition won't nearly as well, is work for near field listening, so you can use Druid in quite a small room if needed.

Zu / electric guitar synergy.
Sean made me a guitar-to-Speakon cable so I can use a Druid as a guitar speaker powered by one of my Mesa or Fender amps. I taped over the supertweeter. It's still a much wider-band driver than a typical guitar amp driver but it had all the tone density of a guitar speaker, just more of the guitar's sound and far less of the driver coloration. It was easier to isolate the actual sound of the amps. Zu's FRD sounds great with guitars because it's a pulp-based speaker and there's no crossover scrambling phase and creating a choke point. Playing music, electric guitar sounds unusually authentic (with a tube amp driving) I think because all the transducers in the source and in the reproducer, are so similar and similarly simple and direct.

Phil
 
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To add to my opening answer to Caesar's open question:

If you accept that Druid 6 and SET bass don't get along, then the amp you go with will affect how much Druid 5 forgiveness for bad recordings of good performances is preserved. If you drive Druid 6 with an ultra-resolution amp like the Klangfilm KLV-204, or a Telefunken V69 modern clone, you will probably like some of your mass market blues and rock recordings less. If you go with a push-pull 2a3 or 300B, all that Druid 5 tolerance will stay.

I may settle on keeping two monoblock amps next to each Druid 6. Klangfilm clones for very high quality recordings; 2a3 push-pull for everything else. Still in the survey & experimentation phase.

Phil
 
Hi Phil,

Like everyone here I would like to welcome you to WBF. I keep telling Marc, when will you release your big review on Druid VI because a dedicated Zu thread without you just isn't the same.

It was your fascinating write-up on the Druid 5/ Definition on Audiogon that persuaded me to give Zu a try and my life hasn't been the same since.

You really outdid yourself this time with this new review/commentary on the Druid VI. Seven months of work and dedication to this. What more needs to be said? It was an honor and a joy to read so thank you for this fine piece of work.

Just wondering if you can elaborate on a few things:

1) You said that the jump from Druid 5 to 6 is bigger then going from Druid 4 to 5. This is remarkable because a lot of people back then said the difference going from Druid 4 to 5 was pretty significant. Is it really true that the Druid 6 is noticeable improvement from top to bottom of the frequency range or is there certain strengths that stand out more compared to others?

2) You mention Zu's focus and attention to detail on the new redesigned cabinet being a major factor. But you didn't talk enough about the very different new FRD Zu is using. The way this new driver is mounted is something I've never seen from a dynamic speaker. Its a pretty extensive redesign of their current 103ND FRD from what Sean told me.

3) Sean told me that the next upcoming Soul ( Soul Supreme succesor ??) speaker at RMAF would have the same performance as Druid 6 but only in the obelisk cabinet. In order to make this happen, Sean is customizing a version of their new FRD from Druid 6 just for the new Soul speaker due to this different cabinet shape. I own the current Soul Supreme and it has been my foundation for the last nearly 5 years now. I said I would only ever consider changing this speaker if Sean released a true successor to it and I guess that time has come. Do you have any more information on this upcoming speaker ?

Thanks again
 
1/ All Druid generational advances have been part of a continuum. Even the incremental improvements in original Druid through v4-08 steadily improved the speaker's objectivity without leaving anything essential to the Druid immediacy and intimacy behind. So Druid 5 was pretty much exactly what I expected it to be based on how far v4-08 had come from the original. It certainly sounded more thoroughly modern, owing especially to the upgrade to the Radian 850 supertweeter, so Druid finally sounded harmonically complete. And Druid 5 had seriously quelled the cabinet talk of early version, and the heavier plinth helped ground the speaker. D5 was really the first serious revamp of the form factor for resonance control.

Conceptually, Druid 6 is of the same evolutionary continuum, but it is such a holistic attack on energy waste and noise, that resulting performance sounds like a reset of the design. Every aspect of Druid 6 music presentation is objectively better than Druid 5. The immediately-striking boosts are in bass depth and character, and reach of its dynamic projection into a room. Brand new it's tight like all brand new Zu speakers, then in a month or two the FRD limbers up and the dielectrics burn in and you are startled and impressed by how much more dynamic life there is to Druid 6 than Druid 5. As I said at the outset, it's *vivid*! With time all the other factors bloom: tone, definition spatial projection, tonal linearity, etc. and you get the sense the Druid 5 was the end of an evolutionary line; Druid 6 is the start of a new vector. It's also significant that in the past, Druid advancements tended to be informed by new techniques pioneered in Definition. Now, Druid 6 became the R&D project yielding the foundational principles for the next Definition, next Soul, Soul Supreme and even the eventual "Experience." With any luck, the eventual Experience will benefit from trickle-up from Druid 6 and trickle-down from Dominance.

2/ I didn't elongate my commentary on Druid 6 with a lot of detail about the cabinet and drivers because the raw facts were fairly extensively catalogued by Srajan Ebaen, with lots of help from Sean, in Six Moons 10 or 11 months ago, here: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/zu3/2.html

I didn't want to be too redundant or end up with something so long, nobody would read it.

Here's what Sean Casey had to say about this to me last autumn:

"...Really, the main feature, which is also to say the largest benefit to fidelity, is our new full-range driver. It is designed to mate with the new Druid cabinet in such a way as to drastically reduce the system’s reflected energy—noise generated by driver and cabinet are all significant reduced—without having to burden the loudspeaker with the tradition of huge dollops of sound-to-heat damping material. The new driver fits within the Druid-VI cabinet's full-depth 90? precision machined conical socket; the very high dynamic compression, tension and torque forces are generated and distributed through the driver, massive backside thrust washer and the cabinet’s superstructure. Such a tightly controlled mechanical impedance transfer system allows us to off-load and direct this undesirable yet unavoidable* dirty energy from the cone assembly and driver framework and move it into targeted nodal/transfer rods within the loudspeaker. The improvements in sound are significant and are very easy to hear and measure throughout all domains of fidelity.

"*Sure, if we we could get upwards of 120dB-SPL/1W @1m we wouldn’t have to do this, as nearly all that dirty energy would be converted into nearly noise-free sound waves.

"The super tweeter, while still based on the fantastic Radian 850 is also new and also employs the same 90? precision machined conical socket-type mounting outlined in the full-range driver text.

"The cabinet is crazy. For that I would reference the article over at six moons http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/zu3/2.html

"New base works with the new cabinet."


Now, when I reference the focus on the cabinet and energy management in Druid 6, I think of the new FRD and ST drivers casing and interfaces with the cabinet as integral to the cabinet revisions. If you could install the current D6 drivers in a D5 cabinet, the resulting speaker would sound different from a D5 but it wouldn't be a D6. Similarly if you just installed D5 drivers in a D6 cabinet, you still don't have a Druid 6. One without the other only goes so far. So, particularly the tension mounting of the FRD, not having it just hung from the baffle, is a huge step forward and making the speaker tonally more objective and dynamically both more precise and more energetic. But the designs of the drivers, how they are mounted, and how the cabinet suppresses noise and routes "dirty energy" to ground are products of holistic engineering to boost the directness and prominence of the FRD's transducer function over noise and distortion. In toto, I consider the holistic and integrated energy management in Druid 6 to be more the source of the great leap forward for this form factor, than the continuing electro-magnetic and materials doping of the drivers themselves.

Which means the next Definition is going to be a kick-ass speaker! And so will the diminutive Soul/Soul Supreme. I've learned that Sean noodles many changes on the way to finalizing a design, so while I think you can easily extrapolate from current Soul how Druid 6 techniques will reset that speaker too, it's too early to try to pin down the nuances. In all the time I've followed the company and used its products, I've seen only that Sean does in loudspeaker -- and cable -- design what we do in software: late binding. One has many threads in play, buys as much time to think as possible, and gels an executed product as far into the pre-production phase as possible.

Because the Soul cabinet is smaller and simpler than Druid 6, it will cost less, and of course it is visually less intrusive to a room. Also it's quite possible that if you want to use SET amplification with a Druid 6-based speaker, the next Soul Supreme will allow it, for not delivering that last bit of new bass extension that D6 delivers compared to D5. On the other hand, to get every benefit of Druid 6, you have to buy a Druid 6. Nevertheless, you can be confident that a next Soul leveraging Druid 6, will be a true successor speaker to what you own now.

Druid 6 narrows the differences between intrinsic Druid form factor sound and what comes out of Definition 4. That gap is going to open up again with the likely Definition 6, but I fully expect the two 6ers will no longer sound like they are two distinct branches on a family tree. With Druid 6, Sean has laid the foundation for one Zu sound.

Phil
 
A few further random notes:

1/ Bob Hovland offers an isolation transformer that improves the sound of amps I've tried with it. The design principle is that if an amp is fed power from a balanced power isolation transformer that is designed to operate close to its saturation point, the connected amp will sound, in Bob's words, "more relaxed." I auditioned a pair of Bob's proprietary isolators, found this to be true, and bought them. Each one is a simple black, crinkle-finish box, about 6.75"d x 5"w x 4.25"h. Using Bob's isolation xformers improves dynamic elasticity and removes an anxiety factor that you can put your finger on when you first remove Bob's iron after an initial extended listen. The effect improves further with burn-in. It's not dramatic, but it's musically beneficial. This is relevant to Zu owners, since most use relatively modest power amplifiers. The isolation xformers are rated for 2.5A at 120VAC, safely handling peak demands up to 4A. They are favorable to every tube amp I've tried them with, and with my M2Tech Class D monoblocks as well.

2/ Ling Xiao Nan can also make an upgraded Quad II Clone, using a higher-spec, larger output transformer. This also requires his larger chassis, so cost is higher than the standard true clone. I haven't heard it but he built a pair on a hunch, and reports that the uprated QII Clone now sounds better than the Williamson, and compared to the standard clone, delivers deeper, better bass with a more relaxed top end.

3/ I recently learned something new about the Quad II, explaining its particular synergy with Zu Druid. The Quad II has a multi-tap OPT but the chassis only has room for a pair of binding posts. Most Quad II have their outputs wired to the OPT 8 ohms tap. So why does the amp work so well driving the 16 ohms Druid? The curiosity of a gentleman in Australia answers the question. From the 8 ohm tap, measured at 1 kHz and driving 8 ohms, Quad II peaks at ~20.5w, THD < 1.5%. Peak power is actually produced at 10.5 ohms, reaching just shy of 22w. The 8 ohms tap driving 8 ohms makes up to 7 watts in Class A. However, if the 8 ohms tap is driving 16 ohms, peak power declines only slightly to ~18.5w, but ~14.5w are available Class A. If you use Quad II on Zu Druids, any version, don't have your output terminals wired to the OPT 16 ohms tap. If you did that so the 16 ohms tap drives 16 ohms, power would peak at ~21w but only ~7.5w would be available Class A.

You can get similar benefits for 6 ohms Definitions. There is an undocumented, "illegal" 4 ohms tap on the Quad II OPT. If you are driving Definitions with Quad II, make the change. The 4 ohms tap driving 4 ohms yields peak power just over 20w, but only 8w are available Class A. However, the 4 ohms tap driving 6 ohms causes only a modest peak power decline to 18w, but up to 12w are available Class A. If the 8 ohms tap drives 6 ohms, peak power is the same ~18w, but only ~5.5w are available Class A.

The author of the study does not recommend using the Quad II 16 ohm taps for any load less than 32 ohms, and there aren't many such speakers. But I have to point out that the QII 16 ohms tap would be sensational for double LS3/5a (15 ohms version) wired in series for 30 ohms, ala the mid-70s Absolute Sound Double Advent System. I had a Double LS3/5a system, powered by Julius Futterman OTL amps that peaked at 32 ohms, 40 years ago.

Here's the link on Quad II details, with lots more than I described above:

http://www.turneraudio.com.au/quad2powerampmods.html

Phil
 
Phil, is Sean planning to replicate the Defs 6 w downfiring sub again? Or is he looking at front and/or side firing? And what are the current ideas/timeline on Dominances 2 (or is that 6?) and Experiences?
 
Marc,

Probably not downfiring. Front facing and boxer-style both-sides subs are the contenders, and he's (Sean) close to deciding.

Phil
 
If Sean had an investor, he'd get Experience, "Dominance 2" and Def6 done all at once. He has capital limitations. He will take a custom order on a Dominance config anytime. But in terms of models, I think you will see Def6, SoulX, and Experience before a new Dominance. -Phil
 
Experience still some way off?
Good LOL, zero funds in the kitty.
 
Phil, is there more to enlighten us on cabinet construction?

I do know Sean has been looking to increase structural stiffness/strength, while also trying to go lighter, pound for pound.

He's been experimenting with composites of carbon fibre and Russian birch. I think this is different from Magico, Wilson and Rockport that are using synthetic monococque cabinets or braced Aluminium, which all vastly add to weight.
 
Caesar,

Since you are both already knowledgeable about Druid 5 / Audion SET sound, and are enthusiastic about what you hear, Druid 6 will give you more of everything. But that means more tone density, more dynamic shove, more agility, more transparency, more intimacy, more emotional projection, along with deeper bass response. Druid 6 does not tilt toward analytical. Music is first and I think the artifacts of a poor recording are reproduced in the same ratio to the true tone you want to hear as in Druid 5. But D6 in giving you more of what you want to hear, and keeping the artifacts:music ratio similar, cannot suppress the artifacts. They get elevated proportionately. Different listeners may or are likely to respond differently to this, or as likely it's just something you notice early and process as a new normal. Druid 6 is still a bursty, fun, emotionally-projecting speaker but it resolves more nuance and sounds more dynamically sensitive with more powerful surges. It doesn't become Magico-like in any way but the net result is that given what it can reveal, upstream gear may need adjustment.

Most controversial for someone like you is my conclusion that you will not get the bass reproduction right with SET driving Druid 6. With Druid 5, Audion Golden Dreams are sublime, and I have had a pair driving my succession of Druids since 2005. I recently sold them because the deeper bass response of Druid 6 shows too many faults of zero-NFB SET bass characteristics. I had my Golden Dreams running the best bass tube available, the KR 300B balloon glass, and still. Druid 6 bass response is just deep enough to put an SET amp into bloat city down low. This is true as well with the better-bass Audion Black Shadow 845 SET amp. Now, if you are insensitive to a fat-bottom sonic foundation, maybe the effect will seem euphonic for you. I embarked on trials of a succession of single-ended pentode and push-pull triode amps to get around the problem and both fix the SET bass bloat problem on Druid 6 nicely.

As I mentioned, some people will be happy staying with Druid 5, and they are much less cash anyway. You have to look at Druid 6 as a speaker with all the same Zu-brand and Druid-brand attributes but significantly advanced for the form factor with some likely consequences to choice of mated gear.

...l

Cobra,
Thank you very much for such a thorough reply! So other than the low bass issues, are there any downsides to running SETs with Zu?

After all, SETs are addictive....Does the bass issue interfere with the virtues such as speed, transparency, rich tone, dynamic verve, etc., anywhere else?

If it's only the bass, I may be able to live with it. Or not, depending whether it's a distraction from the main virtues of the setup. I have other systems that do bass flat to mid-teens. I guess I wlll have to listen... and if not, Druid 5 and Audion are already sublime!

Also, do you have any idea why Audion synergizes so well with (most) Zu?
Thanks
 
No other downsides to powering Druid 6 with good SET amps. Not all SET amps are up to the job however. Whether you hear SET bass through Druid 6 as a problem depends on what's euphonic to you or what's most likely to distract you. I can only point out that its an actionable distraction for me, and I think it will be for most people whose listening sophistication leads them to $10K speakers and $10K - $20K amps in the first place. Doing push-pull triode well keeps most of the SET qualities present, but with superior bass discipline, so I think that's a highly viable route to take with Druid 6. Audion, for example makes push-pull 300B monoblocks.

But certainly it's only in the bass region, so try it. I am not suggesting anyone sell their SET amps *before* trying / buying Druid 6. By all means see what your existing gear sounds like with them. But be prepared to shake up some aspects of your system, with amplification the likeliest candidate.

I found the Audion/Zu synergy the moment I put the two together. Both brands have similar and mutually-reinforcing characteristics: exceptional speed, transparency, directness and tone density. A crossover-based and less efficient speaker obscures some of these qualities in Audion. A slow, toneless amp undermines Zu's agility and tonal excellence. Both companies are also highly mindful of coils. Audion's in-house transformers are proprietary and critical to their open, musical, agile sound. Zu puts the same effort in voice coils and the balance of electromagnetic factors for optimizing the motor. They are a hand-in-glove match.

Phil
 
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Phil/Caesar, you may be amazed or horrified (or both) in that I've sold Audion (Black Shadows 845s and Quattro 4 box pre) to go w Nat Audio 211s.
 

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