Yes, it would be nice if their website differentiated better between the models and clearly stated the benefits of each
Zu loudspeakers
- Thread starter spiritofmusic
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Yes, it would be nice if their website differentiated better between the models and clearly stated the benefits of each
Keith, yes, but THREE lots of Omens?
If I looked at Omen Definitions, I'd see way "more" spkr than the Soul Supremes. Yet it costs less. Indeed, once there was also Soul AND Soul Supreme as well.
If I looked at Omen Definitions, I'd see way "more" spkr than the Soul Supremes. Yet it costs less. Indeed, once there was also Soul AND Soul Supreme as well.
Obviously I'm not Sean but from what I can tell of his upcoming plans based on our brief conversations, the new Druid 6 will be a part of their new "Series 6" line and this would be right below their TOTL Dominance. Series 6 would include new Druid and upcoming Soul and Definition.
The previous gen Druid mk5 and my current Soul Supreme and Def. mk4 will not be discontinued and so will be Zu's new mid-level offering.
Then we have the Soul coaxial speaker and Soul Superfly, lower tier mid-level I guess. Basically cabinet is more advanced then Omen line but not yet using superb Radian tweeter.
That means anything below this will be considered their lower level -- their Omen line with their Omen Dirty Weekends being their hook, if one is able to secure one fast enough when they're back in stock.
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I agree with the naming confusion here. The Omen Def esp. with Radian upgrade should fall under the mid-level for Zu but the distinguishing factor is lower cabinet compared to Soul line. The Soul coaxial driver speaker and Soul Superfly would be considered near mid-level. Only thing holding it back is basically the lack of Radian.
Kevin, I still find all this a bit inpenetrable. I guess it was good for me that when I was looking at Zu 11 years ago, the only choice was Definitions 2 and Druids 4. FWIW, too much choice can be a curse.
I'm sure I read a report somewhere that the range of models from Druids down was not so much based on pricepoints, but more aimed at satisfying different types of listener, and musical preferences.
I'm sure I read a report somewhere that the range of models from Druids down was not so much based on pricepoints, but more aimed at satisfying different types of listener, and musical preferences.
I totally agree with you Marc and I have brought this up with Sean a few times. Basically there is too much redundancy in their offerings. For example, with Soul Supreme being only $500 more then Superfly, why not just cancel the Superfly? Simpler is usually better. I would not be surprised if some models are cancelled in near future unless demand for them is really high.
The only good thing for us is that since our speakers won't be cancelled , resale value should be better if we need to sell it.
You're also right about some of their speakers being catered more to certain listeners. They have their coaxial Soul speaker for those that want an affordable single point source speaker. The Superfly, Supreme and Druid would be geared more for audiophile nearfield listening with Druid being more suited to larger room. Definition is one if not lowest priced full-range speaker ( sub-level bass) in the world.
But I think Keith and Caesar nailed it earlier, most non audiophiles will pick from their Omen line. When you start looking at Soul line and up, you're most likely an audiophile.
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Kevin, this thread has been a bit of a shot in the arm for my love of Zus. I may be the biggest proponent of the brand on this forum, but I've had a love/hate relationship re ownership and optimising setup that's lasted 11 years now, in main part to two very challenging extra large spaces, one hugely reflective, one with a problematic floor.
Partly due to the sheer enthusiasm of you, Phil and Caesar, I've reeled back on window shopping for other spkrs, and have wked really hard to crack the final conundrum of integrating extended subs output w no smearing of mids. I'd never quite got this right, but my big discovery of Revopods footers and Phil's help in dialling in the subs has been critical, and in the last 3 days things have really transformed here, resulting in a total inner peace and happiness as to what I'm hearing.
So, thanks guys for keeping the Zu flag flying and consequently getting me fully back on board.
Partly due to the sheer enthusiasm of you, Phil and Caesar, I've reeled back on window shopping for other spkrs, and have wked really hard to crack the final conundrum of integrating extended subs output w no smearing of mids. I'd never quite got this right, but my big discovery of Revopods footers and Phil's help in dialling in the subs has been critical, and in the last 3 days things have really transformed here, resulting in a total inner peace and happiness as to what I'm hearing.
So, thanks guys for keeping the Zu flag flying and consequently getting me fully back on board.
I've stuck at this longer than some people stick at relationships LOL.
I don't know if this is more a comment on me than a comment on Zu.
I don't know if this is more a comment on me than a comment on Zu.
The Zu line below Druid is the normal-people lineup, with Soul/Soul Supreme the boundary models. Zu Cube is a specialty speaker for audiophiles needing a compact speaker in small spaces or secondary systems. Omen line is the party speaker and normal music-for-fun buyer. Druid, Definition, Dominance and anything that emerges between Def and Dominance is for the narrow spectrum of buyers who will spend unreasonable money on hifi. Omen doesn't get the cabinet sophistication and is benefits from affordable, tried-and-true earlier generation Zu developments.
Why aren't horns popular in America? Lots of reasons.
Yes we have have more indoor space than people in many countries but horns generally need larger rooms to sonically integrate properly. And they tend to be visually dominant (and to non-audiophile spouses, visually objectionable). Also truly neutral-sounding horns are scarce. They don't like placement close to walls. Even today's improved horns still have trace shout factors. And suitable electronics are not commonplace in enough purchase outlets to support horns ever being popular. Further, in much of America's wood-frame, drywall-on-studs interior home construction, horns energize a lot of glare. There aren't enough people who are audiophiles, music lovers, monied and willing to give over a dedicated, properly-damped room to hifi, for full acoustic treatment, to ever make the horn speaker form factor "popular."
Phil
Why aren't horns popular in America? Lots of reasons.
Yes we have have more indoor space than people in many countries but horns generally need larger rooms to sonically integrate properly. And they tend to be visually dominant (and to non-audiophile spouses, visually objectionable). Also truly neutral-sounding horns are scarce. They don't like placement close to walls. Even today's improved horns still have trace shout factors. And suitable electronics are not commonplace in enough purchase outlets to support horns ever being popular. Further, in much of America's wood-frame, drywall-on-studs interior home construction, horns energize a lot of glare. There aren't enough people who are audiophiles, music lovers, monied and willing to give over a dedicated, properly-damped room to hifi, for full acoustic treatment, to ever make the horn speaker form factor "popular."
Phil
So Phil, you find the range makes logical sense? I know choice can lead to more sales. But can it lead to less if that choice is too extensive and potentially ambiguous? I mean, Omen Defs at first glance offers a lot more than Soul/Supreme.
Do you think that cubic inches plays into it as well. The US has produced some of the biggest wattage amps for both tube and SS.
Also the trend has been towards speakers that can then perform well in terms of measurement. Not saying this is the only reason but the seeming poor value of small watt based SET with accompanying relatively high amounts of THD was also not always embraced in many contemporary ‘advanced’ tech based countries. The renaissance of SET and horn especially is for me a reaction to more analytical objective frames of reference and perhaps a return to primarily exploring music rather than celebrating objective sonic prowess. As digital evolves and streaming frees up musical access the notion of not just playing what music you have in the room at the time but also being able to explore out to the very edges of the boundaries of recorded music whatever and whenever. Vintage, contemporary, vast vaults of recorded music history are open to explore instantly.
Horns and SET make all the distinctions fall away and just leave you with music. Great horns and SET is so not about warm and fuzzy. It is exciting and liberating. It is grainless, effortless and unified and clear like absolute pristine clean water and then combined with either great analogue or digital is then focussed just on musical connection and freedom. SET for me is the great format equaliser and the boundaries for bliss tend to open up not close down. You look for the music and not the limits to it.
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Of course Tao, you could say that SETs in being so revealing of the inner flame of music makes the most stellar recordings go supernova and hence feed yr addiction to only have the best.
But SETs w the right forgiving and synergistic spker also wrings out every last iota of emotion from even average pressings or hot mixes. And I think you and I have found those spkrs.
You can't easily say the epitome of SS pulls off this "looking both ways at once" trick that great triodes manage so effortlessly.
But SETs w the right forgiving and synergistic spker also wrings out every last iota of emotion from even average pressings or hot mixes. And I think you and I have found those spkrs.
You can't easily say the epitome of SS pulls off this "looking both ways at once" trick that great triodes manage so effortlessly.
Marc I find the SET with both the Pap horns and the Harbeth 40.2s just goes straight for the performance. I find it leaves me more aware of when the musical performance isn’t good more so than just if the recording itself isn’t good. Getting a full bodied bass extension and a mid bass rightness with the horns has made for me the difference. The various upgrades to crossover and internal wiring has made them even more true. But what is bringing it all together is really the SET amp with the Zotl pre combo.
Tao, pulling off some of that trick here too. So often I hear uber audiophiles and top line reviewers saying that the performance uptick in the best gear makes so many "average" recordings unlistenable or too challenging.
What an absolute curse. Spend ALL that cash on bleeding edge components, only to find so many recordings have their pants pulled down to be exposed.
No, way better is the SETs/spkr synergy that reveals a more holistic quality in music reproduction that, yes, more recordings sound more distinct from each other, but not a greater number are less enjoyable.
Up the absolute ecstasy rating on those recordings that get it right, but spread greater joy over much of the rest. Challenging listens should still be a small minority even w the best setups.
SETs achieve this way better than SS, imho.
What an absolute curse. Spend ALL that cash on bleeding edge components, only to find so many recordings have their pants pulled down to be exposed.
No, way better is the SETs/spkr synergy that reveals a more holistic quality in music reproduction that, yes, more recordings sound more distinct from each other, but not a greater number are less enjoyable.
Up the absolute ecstasy rating on those recordings that get it right, but spread greater joy over much of the rest. Challenging listens should still be a small minority even w the best setups.
SETs achieve this way better than SS, imho.
It is a kind of inner truth that comes from the middle place and not from the extremes. It doesn’t just belong to a handful of absolute elites. It is accessible and obvious and easily recognised by all, not just the cognoscenti. Music. For all the noise about only this or that absolute extremity ever being good enough music via the simple honesty of SET instead evades these traps and is very available and utterly enjoyable. The negative mindsets are just not in SET. Good SET just plays good music. Digital or analogue it just isn’t held back by these distinctions, as long as the essentials are there it will find where the cup is half full and not just constantly point to where it is half empty.
I wouldn't have said it was Ked who is predictable in this scenario...
I find your characterizations of why horns aren't more popular in America based more on a bunch of tropes than real information. While it is harder to get a good integrated sound from a horn in theory, in practice there are a number of companies out there now that do an excellent job. It is more demanding to build them correctly and drivers tend to be more expensive so there are fewer designers doing them. Let's never forget though that JBL is alive and well but abandoned horns for the home market a long time ago (some of the best all-time horn speakers came from the 50s-80s JBL designers). Altec (RIP) was a great American brand that made excellent sound speakers. Ever hear a 604 duplex in a proper cabinet? I would take that over a Zu whatever any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Not to say that Zu is bad, its not but it is also not breaking new ground...finally improving to a proper high end sound I would say (no I don't consider the older Zu stuff as worthy).
IMO, the real reason for their general lack of popularity amongst American audiophiles is marketing and magazines. They pushed the low sensitivity/high power narrative for a long time and hard that horns were bad and from that old bygone era where power was scarce so you HAD to have a horn. What they failed to mention (and what old people apparently forgot) was that those systems sounded GOOD! Of course most were found in theaters so people didn't really know very well what they were hearing but the well-heeled audiophile from the early 1960s could have a JBL Hartsfield in the corner or Paragon console, powered by some McIntosh or Marantz tubes and be getting, even by today's standards, world class sound. There is a reason why these systems bring 30-50K on the used market and it's not nostalgia.
FWIW, the Japanese audiophiles never really bought this marketing campaign and they gobbled up JBLs, Altecs, Tannoys etc. and their rooms are REALLY small in general...so much for the horns not working in small rooms. Europeans woke up in the 90s, especially the Germans, which is why you have quite a few from that country now...America is just behind the curve a bit with the whole Horn + SET thing...
The market right now is flooded with amplifiers that are more or less suitable for horns (everything you wrote on Audiogon about inexpensive chinese amps and not so inexpensive Audion, etc.) and most of this is also available in America. Americans have grown up on a diet of Wilson, Audio Research etc. that doesn't lend itself to particular presentation that makes horns to many sound more like life and less like hifi.
You also fail to consider that horns can work better actually in a challenged room specifically because of their higher directionality as compared to conventional speakers. so what you are saying regarding the horns and rooms doesn't really fly when looked at closely. The one area where the horn may suffer in a lossy room is bass and this is where European makes, with their stout concrete and brick rooms, may come across as lean in an American home (and American speakers can sound bloated over here). Close to walls? Again higher directionality reduces sidewall reflections as compared to the Harman school of wide, even dispersion that interacts heavily with the walls, floor and ceiling. Dipole line source speakers can work even better in tight spaces (contrary to conventional "wisdom") because that first side wall reflection and the ceiling/floor bounces are minimized but horns do just fine in smaller rooms (I know I have been there/done that and very successfully.)
As to the augmented widebander, which is the Druid, I have nothing in principle with this philosophy and I have a pair of good sounding widebanders myself (Decware HDTs, which are being augmented with a Beyma CP350Ti compression driver). So, I know about the coherence to which you preach (All my full-range electrostats were also essentially single widebanders). That said, I know of some horn systems that have equally good coherence (or at least I, even with my sensitivities in this direction, do not hear obvious discontinuities) and do far better when the music gets messy.
As to Zu providing something you couldn't get elsewhere...well I am not sure how hard you tried to look beyond American brands to find out...
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