Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[Rensselaer]

I watched this YouTube video from Steve at HiFi Huff

describing the difference between Mid-Fi and High End.

He briefly mentions Exotic systems costing $300K-$500K as being mostly about design and "heavy stuff", and says no more about those, but concentrates on mid-fi and High End.

He says something interesting about the High End. He says that the High End focuses on transparency and detail, adding that such may have a fantastic soundstage but can also be thin in the mid's and absolutely anaemic in the bass. Adding that mid-fi can be much more musical and satisfying for most.

I think he is being careful not to disparage those with less expensive systems, and may have some truth in there regarding musicality not being a result of spending more. However, I wonder what you all think about the comment that High End focuses on transparency and detail?

Do you think any improvements at this level are pretty much targeted towards transparency and detail? Does it matter what type of music you listen to? Whether digital or analogue?

I recently was so impressed with how the sound from my system improved with an Albedo Metamorphosis MkII silver interconnect swapped in between the Ypsilon phono stage and Soundgate (Ottoman) 211 SET Ongaku-copy amplifier, that I ordered a pair. It seemed as if all the grunge was removed, veils lifted, more transparency and detail ... oh, that is what he is saying.

Is Steve correct? Are we mostly about greater transparency and detail (or just me at this moment)?

A while back I heard Mozart's Horn Concerto played live with two violins, a clarinet and a bassoon in Dante's Chapel in Florence. The music, from that bassoon, filling that chapel with such weight and power, a listening experience I have never heard matched by any hi fi system regardless of price. But then, I got a musical experience with that Albedo silver interconnect in my system that I never had during a live performance as well. Is there something in this?

What are we searching for? Is it the same for all of us in this hobby? Is it replication of a live concert in our own homes, or something else, something a bit esoteric?

What do you think?

 

[Atmasphere]

but can also be thin in the mid's and absolutely anaemic in the bass.

Sounds like he has no idea what he's talking about. Often a bad sign when the influencer's image is on the splash page...

Is Steve correct? Are we mostly about greater transparency and detail?

That's one aspect only. Ignore this guy- its time you won't get back.

 

[Rensselaer]

Sounds like he has no idea what he's talking about. Often a bad sign when the influencer's image is on the splash page...

Yea, you're no doubt correct. But, what about the sound you look for in designing systems? Are you looking just to give Hi Fi sound (bass slam, treble reach, a wide sound stage), or to make a device sound real, like musicians playing live in the room, or is that not possible? Are you trying to build a system that takes us somewhere unreachable by any other means?

 

[hopkins]

I watched this YouTube video from Steve at HiFi Huff

describing the difference between Mid-Fi and High End.
However, I wonder what you all think about the comment that High End focuses on transparency and detail?

Do you think any improvements at this level are pretty much targeted towards transparency and detail? Does it matter what type of music you listen to? Whether digital or analogue?

I recently was so impressed with how the sound from my system improved with an Albedo Metamorphosis MkII silver interconnect swapped in between the Ypsilon phono stage and Soundgate (Ottoman) 211 SET Ongaku-copy amplifier. It seemed as if all the grunge was removed, veils lifted, more transparency and detail ...

Is Steve correct? Are we mostly about greater transparency and detail?

I heard Mozart's Horn Concerto played live with two violins, a clarinet and a bassoon in Dante's Church in Florence. The music, from that bassoon, filling that chapel with such weight and power, a listening experience I have never heard matched by any hi fi system regardless of price. But then, I got a musical experience with that Albedo silver interconnect in my system that I never had during a live performance as well.

What are we searching for? Is it the same for all of us in this hobby? Is it replication of a live concert in our own homes, or something else, something a bit esoteric?

What do you think?

I personally can't stand this guy. Every new piece of gear is the best he's ever heard. As for the rest...you won't catch me talking about transparency and detail on our forum as a result of the constant negative connotations that a certain group of forum members give it. Transparency and detail has been "cancelled" here!

 

[Atmasphere]

Yea, you're no doubt correct. But, what about the sound you look for in designing systems? Are you looking just to give Hi Fi sound (bass slam, treble reach, a wide sound stage), or to make a device sound real, like musicians playing live in the room, or is that not possible? Are you trying to build a system that takes us somewhere unreachable by any other means?

You can't get it to sound perfect on account of the space in which a recording is made vs your own space. I look at the system as a sort of time-space setup where you can temporarily graft your room onto a musical event that happened somewhere (which is documented by the recording).

IME the biggest issue preventing recordings sounding real is the act of recording itself. The microphones have sounded absolutely real for a very long time. In some cases the recording and sound like a musician is in the room. In other cases, just as real but just beyond your room. And still other cases, neither (multi-mic'ced and multi-tracked).

From my perspective as a designer of playback equipment you have to keep distortion down and what distortion you do get, benign (unobjectionable to the ear). If no feedback, wide bandwidth to avoid phase shift. And so on. To do the best you can you may have to use expensive parts, a lot of power supply bypassing (which might be large filter caps or better yet, lots of small ones), and so on.

I like to use recordings I know really well (like ones I made) to know if it sounds right. I use measurements too, since if I can't get bandwidth to be spot on over the audio band, its likely (thru experience) not worth it taking the piece I'm working on off the test bench. If it sounds harsh something is really wrong but so far I've not got into trouble with that since you can see the project is going to sound that way on the bench.

 

[Rensselaer]

You can't get it to sound perfect on account of the space in which a recording is made vs your own space. I look at the system as a sort of time-space setup where you can temporarily graft your room onto a musical event that happened somewhere (which is documented by the recording).

IME the biggest issue preventing recordings sounding real is the act of recording itself. The microphones have sounded absolutely real for a very long time. In some cases the recording and sound like a musician is in the room. In other cases, just as real but just beyond your room. And still other cases, neither (multi-mic'ced and multi-tracked).

From my perspective as a designer of playback equipment you have to keep distortion down and what distortion you do get, benign (unobjectionable to the ear). If no feedback, wide bandwidth to avoid phase shift. And so on. To do the best you can you may have to use expensive parts, a lot of power supply bypassing (which might be large filter caps or better yet, lots of small ones), and so on.

I like to use recordings I know really well (like ones I made) to know if it sounds right. I use measurements too, since if I can't get bandwidth to be spot on over the audio band, its likely (thru experience) not worth it taking the piece I'm working on off the test bench. If it sounds harsh something is really wrong but so far I've not got into trouble with that since you can see the project is going to sound that way on the bench.

We have members with low sensitivity speakers and high power transistor amps, high sensitivity horns and flea-watt SETs, electrostatics and panels, digital and analogue. They all sound different, and if different, then they all can’t sound real. There must be something that each gives to the owner that is unique, exciting, emotive that is there despite the different soundscapes each produces, what is that? What is ubiquitous at this level?

 

[hopkins]

We have members with low sensitivity speakers and high power transistor amps, high sensitivity horns and flea-watt SETs, electrostatics and panels, digital and analogue. They all sound different, and if different, then they all can’t sound real. There must be something that each gives to the owner that is unique, exciting, emotive that is there despite the different soundscapes each produces, what is that? What is ubiquitous at this level?

This could be a topic in and of itself.

None of our systems sound "real". Home audio is a "recreation" not a "reproduction".

 

[cjfrbw]

Sounds like he has no idea what he's talking about. Often a bad sign when the influencer's image is on the splash page...

LoL! When has that ever stopped anybody on the internet?

 

[thedudeabides]

What is ubiquitous at this level?

Petty simple I think. Personal bias and preferences

 

[Rensselaer]

Petty simple I think. Personal bias and preferences

Glib response, cute, but doesn’t enlighten.

Get personal. What is it about your music playback system that attracts you most? What aspect(s) of how it looks, what it cost, how it makes sound effects (it’s design) do you think makes you reach for your wallet most?

It is a survey, if you like. We are, as a rule, those that have gone beyond the usual level of expenditure and have systems that could be described as rare, unique, museum-quality, super-fi or ultimate. I am wanting to see if there is, like a red cape before a bull, something we all are drawn to. Our kryptonite.

Why we each believe High End is worth it.

 

[Grateful]

We've been to the Ferrari museum in Maranello with the kids and had a great time. I was more impressed by the Italian Automobile Museum in Turin. If I had the money, I'd have one of those things as a work of art and put it in my living room. However, even if you buy a Ferrari just to look at it, with fuel added the performance is a given.

There are a lot of similarities with audio, except the marginal returns diminish at a much lower point and the performance is not a given. If you make $0.5m or $1m supercars and their performance is poor, your business will fail. This is proven. There seem to be quite a few audio products that do not seem to be value, not because of their price, but because at that price they should perform a lot better. That said, if an amplifier sounds lousy but someone wants to spend six figures just to look at it as a piece of industrial art, then that's their choice.

I’m a finance guy and think there’s very few similarities between buying a Ferrari and high end audio gear. Limited edition Ferraris usually appreciate in value (price) and high end audio gear usually depreciates quickly in value (price). I could continue but will merely conclude, IMO, it’s a bad comparison.

 

[Grateful]

High end Audio, like high end cars and watches have three tiers of buyers. The new buyers are the affluent who also influence the market. Tier two buyers buy the second hand high end gear. And the third tier buyers buy the classic gear, the decades old once top end gear. Each of these markets sort out value and worth. Trying to guess which components will become classics and hold their value over time is difficult.

Investing is my game and I think comparing high end audio gear (which is almost certain to quickly depreciate in value) to high end cars and watches (true collectibles!) is very foolish. Your hobby is almost certain to cost you money, while their hobby may be very profitable.

 

[Grateful]

The research we did at TAS indicated an emerging ultra-luxury customer segment on high end audio. This simply mirrors what has happened in cars, watches, and clothing.

Sorry, I’ll stop after this comparison post. I think the only fair comparison being made to high end audio is high end clothing. Eventually, both are going to be worth considerably less than what you paid (especially, adjusted for inflation). One poster (who was attempting to make high end audio comparisons) actually proved that true with their $10,000 AM radio example.

 

[Grateful]

So true. Actually there is one example exactly matches what you said about 20K Technics. And it is 200K SAT turntable.

Thanks, IMO, this is a very valuable and enlightening post! I find it very logical!

So, what other large scale manufacturers have made high end audio gear with basically equal quality/performance and selling for less than 25% of other high end audio manufacturers?

 

[ssfas]

I’m a finance guy and think there’s very few similarities between buying a Ferrari and high end audio gear. Limited edition Ferraris usually appreciate in value (price) and high end audio gear usually depreciates quickly in value (price). I could continue but will merely conclude, IMO, it’s a bad comparison.

Resale is an entirely different matter. A limited edition Ferrari may have a premium because demand outstrips supply. A limited edition amplifier is probably because no one wanted to buy it in the first place.

 

[mtemur]

Thanks, IMO, this is a very valuable and enlightening post! I find it very logical!

So, what other large scale manufacturers have made high end audio gear with basically equal quality/performance and selling for less than 25% of other high end audio manufacturers?

Audio Technica, Belden, ORB

 

[andromedaaudio]

LoL! When has that ever stopped anybody on the internet?

Its to atract viewers.
Apparently YT viewers are much more likely to watch a vid which has the makers face in it with some sort of dramatic expression and a suggestive tittle.

 

[Rensselaer]

I personally can't stand this guy. Every new piece of gear is the best he's ever heard. As for the rest...you won't catch me talking about transparency and detail on our forum as a result of the constant negative connotations that a certain group of forum members give it. Transparency and detail has been "cancelled" here!

I’m not interested in his “reviews” either, just surfing YouTube one night when I couldn’t get to sleep. I watched it because the title sort of matched this thread.

Pretty much nothing posting except for one point he made, that high end buyers seek transparency and detail. So I considered his words to see if they apply to me and recalled my latest purchase was an Albedo Signature silver interconnect, because it removed veils (transparency and detail?). Then I questioned what I actually was drawn to with every piece of equipment upgrade throughout my life.

What I was drawn to is not interesting to anyone but me, but what all of you are drawn to most could be gathered, collated and statistically analysed to learn what causes us to spend, what equipment can produce that characteristic and how it does it (design uniqueness). I would think that information would be extremely useful to our manufacturers here (maybe this should be a separate thread).

 

[Grateful]

Resale is an entirely different matter. A limited edition Ferrari may have a premium because demand outstrips supply. A limited edition amplifier is probably because no one wanted to buy it in the first place.

From my many investment experiences, the secondary market (resale, as you defined it) value is a MUCH better indicator of true value than the primary market!

In equities, the primary market (IPO) is a manipulated market controlled mostly by Investment Banks. The secondary market (public stock market) will do a much better job properly valuing (pricing) the stock.

The same is true with fine art. Dealers manipulate the primary market and control the pricing. Send the piece to a large auction house (secondary market) and you will better determine its true value. The vast majority (90%+) of fine art will sell for substantially less in the secondary market. Usually, the dealers end up making more money off a piece than the artist who created it and the collectors who buy it.

Upon reflection, maybe the fine art market is the best comparison to high end audio. Regardless, the Ferrari market is a bad comparison!

 

[Grateful]

Audio Technica, Belden, ORB

Much thanks!