Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[VladB]

Yes, the bass crossover setting is probably as much a question of personal preferences and favorite music material as is the question of room modes and phase/time issues..

I like my piano to be a little left-hand “heavy-handed”, or more “Denis Matsuev-The Russian Bear-like” - watch this guy play on YouTube if you had not seen him before..

Still, it is interesting to get to the correct theoretical conclusion - shall we care about small differences in bass physical location vs main drivers at the frequencies below 100 Hz or even below 60 Hz for the Zeta - or do we actually solve the room modes/bass resonance issues by moving bass horns around while we think that we are aiming to time-space align them?

 

[VladB]

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

my rearchambers are ventilated so the subhorns hardly excite roomnodes at all
takes over from midbasshorns @75Hz
same with midbasshorns

 

[Folsom]

I think what you are saying is nonsense.
For sure in relation to what is discussed in this topic, the distance listening position to mainspeaker and to basshorn.
I only agree with the above theory when it's on the vertical ax or to the side with still the same Listeningposition to speaker distance, e.g. in a MTM speaker where there are e.g. two mids above eachother with a tweeter inbetween.


Really ? So a woofer can be 1 or 2 feet behind (or before) a midrange when crossed at 500hz, with no audible effect to you ? Or a mid 2 inch (~5cm) behind the tweeter when crossed at 5000hz ?
Just 2mm difference tweeter to mid is very audible to me (and to many).
To time align all drivers mechanically in many Cessaro speakers (and Wilsons e.g.) makes a huge difference (to me). It is very audible when you adjust it. Just my 2 cents.

So you think in the vertical axis distance doesn’t matter but it does on the other two because??? Quantum physics??? If you move a driver vertically it changes distance relative to your ear. That is why we can measure the effects of poor power response vertically but usually no one really cares because we setup to sit at a specific level.

At 500hz the wavelength is 2.2ft. So no your measurements are wrong. The center of a mid and bass driver will inherently be probably no less than 1 ft apart because of the sheer size of the drivers adding up to that with their radiuses. You really have maybe a foot to play with at max but you still physically couldn’t move them that far, because it’s total distance. The tweeter mid example is similar.

You can’t necessarily move them with the same crossover and expect good results. The shapes of the world cause problems with the sound waves. You can easily introduce comb filtering and diffraction and change the wave propagation for power response and lobing. So yes of course it’s audible to move something in general, it just isn’t a factor of time alignment when you’re within that wavelengths. Luckily at actual bass frequencies that we’ve been discussing they’re too big to diffract off of our general shapes of speakers, and if they lobe it’s inperceptible, and the power response is really a function of modes and nodes (bass equivalent to comb filter), not wave propagation.

Moving a subwoofer a foot can be significantly less phase change relationship than a mid driver’s excursion at 1mm is in relation to a tweeter. In fact the phase relationship between the top and bottom frequencies of a midbass driver are probably the biggest phase changes in speakers. That happens just because of the distance it has to travel for different frequencies. That doesn’t mean they sound wrong, but it does mean they aren’t time aligned.

Although I suppose if you could give a 2” driver limitless excursion eventually you’d hit distances that were beyond one wavelength.... Would it sound like a speaker within a speaker? I don’t know.

 

[awsmone]

I think this argument about mids versus subwoofer alignment is a straw man

what we are talking about here is the alignment of the mid woofer horn with the sub woofer Horn

my understand is that Tangs mid woofer drops off below 125 hz, and I think is an acoustic slope

so the critical relationships is the 80 to 125 hertz region for both midwoofer and subwoofer

phase alignment will have an effect to this region as the wavelengths are similar yes ?

100 hertz is about 4 meter wavelength
so moving it 0.5 metres is a phase change of 45degrees this is not trivial at these wavelengths

obviously if aberrations in midwoofer frequencies occuring due to phase misalignment will influence the balance with frequencies higher up

there is the added question of the group delay of the subwoofer amplifiers , and imho a dsp would have been far more useful for dialling it in to the midwoofers given the sheer size of the bass horns

here is a video showing the effect of phase matching in this region

 

[Folsom]

 

[Tango]

I will play this for a fellow Gamma's owner Vlad. Dvorak by Rostropovich/Boris Khaikin. I did not realize I have this record and play it the first time today. It is stereo but the recording sounds vintage with orchestra in the back sounded like mono. A pretty good vinyl. Very different presentation from the great Hoelscher of the same Dvorak where you can hear more orchestra in pieces.

 

[Folsom]

Ordered one.

Tang, did you suggest this one? I just got around to cleaning it and forget. Good music. I may try an older copy from USSR.

 

[Ovenmitt]

Tang, I just noticed your cable lifters. Those are exquisite! I imagine they must be made from military grade rocket nose cone material or something similarly exotic. Can you tell us where you got them and how I might order my own set?

being serious - you system, even through my computer speakers is sounding really good! Thanks for sharing the photos and videos.

 

[cjfrbw]

Yep, sounds dope over You Tube. I would leave the amps there with space age vibration gels under them.

 

[bonzo75]

Yep, sounds dope over You Tube. I would leave the amps there with space age vibration gels under them.

Dope. You got that from Brooklyn 99?

 

[cjfrbw]

Dope. You got that from Brooklyn 99?

British Isles are scarcely slang depleted. We blithering across-the-ponders have a few of our own, in spite of the irony deficit.

 

[VladB]

Thank you, Tang. Melodia had indeed made quite a few interesting recordings back in Soviet time. The Leningrad plant presses are also rather surprisingly good, though it is hard to find domestic LPs in good condition, as the playback technology, including styluses was rather crude back then...

If you like Rostropovich, this modern re-issue of 1995 Bach recordings is not bad:


And if you want to have a nice sound spectacle with the Russian folk instruments in your room, get this one - it is spectacular!)))

 

[Tango]

Ordered one.

Tang, did you suggest this one? I just got around to cleaning it and forget. Good music. I may try an older copy from USSR.

No. I don't have Lazar on Schumann. Is it decent?

 

[Tango]

Tang, I just noticed your cable lifters. Those are exquisite! I imagine they must be made from military grade rocket nose cone material or something similarly exotic. Can you tell us where you got them and how I might order my own set?

being serious - you system, even through my computer speakers is sounding really good! Thanks for sharing the photos and videos.

Ha. These are fabulous lifters. They are made of natural material... the eucalypse cellulose . These toilet paper cones disperse energy from the subs really well and also anti electromagnetic interference..hehe. I use whatever I have in my room now. I am getting very cheap like Bonzo.

 

[Folsom]

Thank you, Tang. Melodia had indeed made quite a few interesting recordings back in Soviet time. The Leningrad plant presses are also rather surprisingly good, though it is hard to find domestic LPs in good condition, as the playback technology, including styluses was rather crude back then...

If you like Rostropovich, this modern re-issue of 1995 Bach recordings is not bad:

View attachment 66263
And if you want to have a nice sound spectacle with the Russian folk instruments in your room, get this one - it is spectacular!)))

Can you find that folk one on discogs? I'm not sure which it is.

 

[Folsom]

No. I don't have Lazar on Schumann. Is it decent?

I like it. I'd buy it again.

 

[Tango]

Yep, sounds dope over You Tube. I would leave the amps there with space age vibration gels under them.

Vibration gel. My english is no good. You mean gel for vibrator?

 

[Tango]

Thank you, Tang. Melodia had indeed made quite a few interesting recordings back in Soviet time. The Leningrad plant presses are also rather surprisingly good, though it is hard to find domestic LPs in good condition, as the playback technology, including styluses was rather crude back then...

If you like Rostropovich, this modern re-issue of 1995 Bach recordings is not bad:

View attachment 66263
And if you want to have a nice sound spectacle with the Russian folk instruments in your room, get this one - it is spectacular!)))

Thank you Vlad. I didn't think you do vinyl. I understand 5 languages. Unfortunately Russian isn't one of them. This folk instruments are contemporary?

 

[the sound of Tao]

Vibration gel. My english is no good. You mean gel for vibrator?

Your English is always very good Tang but perhaps just a bit dry... maybe your English needs more gel