Sublime Sound

[the sound of Tao]

You can have a natural sound system that has not reached the stage to resolve complex orchestral and choir, and you can have a system that resolves the complexity but is not natural sound. You want to stay on the axis of natural as you improve complexity resolution

Do we add in musicality and go for the trifecta?

Resolved + natural + musical = realism

 

[bonzo75]

Do we add in musicality and go for the trifecta?

Resolved + natural + musical = realism

Lagonda, trifecta is not a threesome

 

[the sound of Tao]

I’m not sure Milan may agree.

I’m thinking on reflection perhaps it’s more of a holistic quadrella.

 

[bonzo75]

I’m not sure Milan may agree.

I’m thinking on reflection perhaps it’s more of a holistic quadrella.

He calls it orgy

 

[the sound of Tao]

That man is a gentleman through and through... I’m horrified

 

[the sound of Tao]

truly resolved = truly natural = truly musical = true realism

 

[ddk]

Sorry to disagree, David. What I questioned in your characterization of natural is in my experience far more subjective than you think.

And yes, in general I do take an overall more holistic approach as well, and I am not interested in an "impressive" hifi sound either. I'll leave that up to some people who do not take unamplified live music as reference.

I'm limited by my vocabulary describing natural and your interpretation of it, better understood when experienced. It's only subjective if wether or not one chooses "natural" as a goal.

Yet natural sound as the absence of distracting flaws, as David suggested, is problematic. If you don't want distracting flaws, the quickest way to get there is covering up the flaws, rather than addressing them head on.

I don't know of any tools that can be used effectively and with precision on a flaw or artifact, in general when you try to mask one thing you'll end up affecting the entire frequency range thus creating a new flaw or coloration. Let's not forget that some of those flaws and artifacts are created by the user, people spend a lot of money on cables, footers, cat litter boxes, etc., to create phony imaging and soundstage and often go further down the rabbit hole trying to counteract some of the flaws they introduced. There's no masking anything.

By the way, I don't see how greater realism stands in contradiction with also an increase in distracting flaws and artifacts.

Most would agree that a good high end system has greater realism than a car radio, but it seems the case that there are often flaws in high end systems that do not present themselves to a similarly distracting degree in car radios. In fact, many report that they sometimes have an easier time getting into the music on a car radio because they don't expect that much from the sound, and because there are not singular flaws that stand out as much.

I personally can very much enjoy music on a car radio as well, even though the much deeper, more involving experience presents itself on my high end system.

Obviously, the best of both worlds is to have both, greater realism and the absence of distracting flaws and artifacts.

If "natural" is the ideal listening to a good live classical fm broadcast on a cheap Delco radio in a cargo van can be transformative, don't underestimate the power of good acoustics. Many high end systems are handicapped by poor installation, wrong acoustic choices and poor ancillaries, all things that people don't mess with in a cargo van!

david

 

[ddk]

Do we add in musicality and go for the trifecta?

Resolved + natural + musical = realism

It's the other way around Graham, you can't have "natural" without musical, realism and certain amount of the right type of resolution but you can have any or all of them without achieving "natural".

david

 

[andromedaaudio]

David i bet i have the cheapest speakercable connectors from any " audiofile".
Stolen from the electrician workshop at work .
pure copper connectors which can be tightened on a end of cable with a pair of pliers .
I think they go for around 0.50 eurocents a piece.

Brg hj

 

[ddk]

David i bet i have the cheapest speakercable connectors from any " audiofile".
Stolen from the electrician workshop at work .
pure copper connectors which can be tightened on a end of cable with a pair of pliers .
I think they go for around 0.50 eurocents a piece.

Brg hj

They sound like mine!

david

 

[Lagonda]

He calls it orgy

Those situations are to performance based for my lazy ass

 

[ddk]

Those situations are to performance based for my lazy ass

I bet you don't get epiphanies in there like Marc!

david

 

[Lagonda]

I bet you don't get epiphanies in there like Marc!

david

On the contrary in the right settings my (musical)epiphanies are rather short lived Like Ron i prefer “Girl with guitar “ situations

 

[morricab]

Yes, we agree on live acoustic music as reference. That is why I was talking about emulating realism.

Yet natural sound as the absence of distracting flaws, as David suggested, is problematic. If you don't want distracting flaws, the quickest way to get there is covering up the flaws, rather than addressing them head on.

When I upgraded my system more than two years ago with new amp and speaker system, it was immediately clear to me that realism had increased dramatically, in the sense of articulation, energy, tonal differentiation and resolution -- micro resolution of timbre, separation of instruments, overall clarity.

Yet over time it also became more and more clear that artifacts, distracting flaws, had increased as well, such as exaggerated hardness and a slightly metallic coloration of sound. The much more articulate and resolving nature of the new system had exposed more problems with my room acoustics, an issue that at that time I had already worked on for years, so I knew that it probably was still haunting me. Also, as it later turned out there was a mismatch between preamp and amp.

So even though realism had increased, at the same time the sound had in a sense also become less 'natural' due the greater prominence of artifacts. If I would have gone the 'natural' route, I might have opted to again go for a less 'offensive' sound, and sold off the new components. That, however, would have been a HUGE mistake.

Instead I chose to stick to the new level of realism that the new system provided and to work on reducing the artifacts, in the confidence that there was nothing inherently wrong with my gear choices, but that I had to work on the acoustic environment instead. Later the introduction of a preamp from the same manufacturer as of my amp finally let all the pieces fall together, eventually also aided by further improvements in speaker setup. The result was, BOTH in terms of realism AND naturalness (in the sense described), vastly better than before. The holistic sound experience is in my view also much better than before.

I let realism be my primary guide, and from that vantage point I was addressing remaining artifacts. Had I chosen a 'natural' sound, in terms of lack of distracting artifacts, as my primary guide instead, this would have been a grave mistake and the final result would not have been of the high and thoroughly engaging quality that I enjoy now.

I disagree that you can cover up artifacts, especially electronic based ones. You can pile other distortions on top of the existing distortions and you usually end up with something just as bad or even worse than what you started with. A good example was some early chinese DACs that wanted to cash in on being "tube" DACs. They would simply slap a cathode follower stage on the end of a bog standard SS stage, usually with multiple opamps. The result was some tube syrup (from a poorly designed tube stage) added onto the synthetic sounding opamp output stage.

This is what a lot of people try to do as well with a tube preamp and a SS amp. They think the tube stage will add some "sweetness " to their analytical sounding SS amp. What you really get typically is something of the worst of both worlds. That is not to say that two really good stages that are different tech can't be designed to work well together and complement each other, but unless designed together you are playing hit and miss. Far better to have a pre and amp that are natural in their lack of audible artifacts than one with flaws that you are trying to compensate for with other, opposite flaws.

 

[bonzo75]

People do not always have the resources to know everything and have the budget to buy the right component at the time of purchase. As they have moved through their hobby, various constraints at different times means they will have imperfect gear every now and then. So to think you will have the perfect neutral colorless system without artefacts won't happen, and whatever your final goal is, you might at various points be away from it. That is not the issue.

The issue is to accept what you have and be honest to yourself about it, rather than thinking you have that dream system everyone on the forum wants that will wow visitors. If someone says they want hifi imaging, they should. But if they indeed want natural sound for classical, and end up with the stereotypical audio show system that sounds good on Diana Krall, Stockfish, and stuff, then there is a problem. Same for fixing artefacts. Not everyone will be able to fix the problems they inherit when they buy components separately in compromised rooms, thing is to realize what one has and what one doesn't, and be at peace with it.

 

[Al M.]

If "natural" is the ideal listening to a good live classical fm broadcast on a cheap Delco radio in a cargo van can be transformative, don't underestimate the power of good acoustics. Many high end systems are handicapped by poor installation, wrong acoustic choices and poor ancillaries, all things that people don't mess with in a cargo van!

david

Yes they don't, and your point is nicely formulated!

 

[Tango]

Tang's natural system

Well...I go beyond ddk's cargo van.

Come to think of it. Ddk was giving you the best alternative for you Bonzo. Explore systems through out Europe by the natural sound cargo van. The knight finally found his sword .

 

[the sound of Tao]

People do not always have the resources to know everything and have the budget to buy the right component at the time of purchase. As they have moved through their hobby, various constraints at different times means they will have imperfect gear every now and then. So to think you will have the perfect neutral colorless system without artefacts won't happen, and whatever your final goal is, you might at various points be away from it. That is not the issue.

The issue is to accept what you have and be honest to yourself about it, rather than thinking you have that dream system everyone on the forum wants that will wow visitors. If someone says they want hifi imaging, they should. But if they indeed want natural sound for classical, and end up with the stereotypical audio show system that sounds good on Diana Krall, Stockfish, and stuff, then there is a problem. Same for fixing artefacts. Not everyone will be able to fix the problems they inherit when they buy components separately in compromised rooms, thing is to realize what one has and what one doesn't, and be at peace with it.

Hmmmm Krall!! Could just go for Stockfish and fish stock and combine your two favourite hobby’s... will still be like most everyones system - always flavoured but somewhere between a soupy broth and a reduction.

 

[Lagonda]

Hmmmm Krall!! Could just go for Stockfish and fish stock and combine your two favourite hobby’s... will still be like most everyones system - always flavoured but somewhere between a soupy broth and a reduction.

Graham sometimes i think you started drinking already, but that can’t be it’s not even noon in your part of the world. And on a school day

 

[the sound of Tao]

Graham sometimes i think you started drinking already, but that can’t be it’s not even noon in your part of the world. And on a school day

Waaaay too early to be drinking, just a great sunny winters day and thanks to climate change it’s quite warm still... so just high on life . Am at home marking my design students work and they have done some really nice and very sustainable landscapes. Plus I bought some 1944 RCA Jan Vt-231 Nos tubes and a quad of 50’s Melz metal base 6Sl7s this morning... all round a win for the natural everywhere.

Plus I just talked myself out of buying a pair of Apogee Duetta Signatures that have just come up locally... so very clearly I am not currently in the grips of the demon drink .