Belt Drive Turntable sucks ? What do u thk

[MrC.]

Thanks Mr.C, may I ask what is your main choice of music for reference, and the rest of your system?

When testing I like a few records like the soundtrack of the movie holy mountain and the soundtrack of the good the bad and the ugly. My musical tastes are ecclectic and I enjoy rock like slade and deep purple and bowie, to small ragas and ambient like brian eno and old reggae. My system uses a heavily modified atmasphere MP-3 with copper output vh caps, cinemag input transformers, lundahl power chokes and a polish made shunt volume control. My tonearm is a Simply Black Cantus on the Brinkmann and Micro 505L on the Micro Seiki. I use a Takumi cart on the Brinkmann and a Zero on the Micro.

The amps are Atma Sphere MA-1 to Atma Sphere Zero Autoformers to MBL 111e. My power cabling was self made and I use jelco phono cable, mogami balanced cables and 80 yr old cloth covered solid copper runs for my speakers.

 

[jespera]

I own idlers like the td124, a micro seiki belt drive and a brinkmann bardo. Of them all the Brinkman is my usual go to for stereo and the micro seiki for mono. The thorens is currently not being used. They each have pluses and minuses. The micro is a belt drive but uses a silk woven belt, not a string, and I believe the "stiffness" or lack of flex to the belt gives it a fair dose of direct drive transient guts, with the advantage of motor isolation. The brinkmann bardo was purchased after I heard the three times more expensive balance and it in the same system using the same arm and carts from emt. The balance sounded lifeless and the bardo was exciting. Perhaps this is attributable to the rubber belt of the balance, and perhaps, like with my micro seiki, this would be ameliorated or cured by a "stiff" plastic belt like is now used on the Kuzma designs or the non stretchable silk belt of the micro seiki. In any event, two of the best turntables I have heard include the saskia, an idler with a massive platter, and the vpi direct drive, using a massively torqued dd motor.

I would agree that you need something to combat the friction of the stylus in the groove which seems small but proves powerful enough that we can hear a difference between turntables. The need for angular momentum is usually accomplished with a massively heavy platter but can also be found through a high torque motor. The best often comes when both are used. I read an article claiming that the three motors on the Audio Note turntable produced a torque equivalent to a rotating platter weighing a quarter ton. Not sure if that is true but it gives an explanation as to why dd can provide the benefits of high mass in a less massive turntable. I would personally avoid any rubber bands as the need for immediate torque is defeated by a stretchable rubber band. I do believe that immediate and constant torque or momentum is the recipe for great vinyl sound. How one gets there is up to you.

15w motor power coresponds to the torque of a 200 kg rotating platter.

So the audio note claim could be correct. Too bad they use a rubber belt for those motors.

 

[bonzo75]

I feel for @Tango who has never tried a direct drive

 

[bonzo75]

When testing I like a few records like the soundtrack of the movie holy mountain and the soundtrack of the good the bad and the ugly. My musical tastes are ecclectic and I enjoy rock like slade and deep purple and bowie, to small ragas and ambient like brian eno and old reggae. My system uses a heavily modified atmasphere MP-3 with copper output vh caps, cinemag input transformers, lundahl power chokes and a polish made shunt volume control. My tonearm is a Simply Black Cantus on the Brinkmann and Micro 505L on the Micro Seiki. I use a Takumi cart on the Brinkmann and a Zero on the Micro.

The amps are Atma Sphere MA-1 to Atma Sphere Zero Autoformers to MBL 111e. My power cabling was self made and I use jelco phono cable, mogami balanced cables and 80 yr old cloth covered solid copper runs for my speakers.

Ennio Morricone's music scores are my favorite, and GBU remains one of my favorites, especially the performance of Eli Wallach and Lee van Cliff. Sergei Leone was capable of turning normal scenes into art through sheer direction and music. Roger Ebert's review on the movie is also a masterpiece https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/great-movie-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-1968

It has to be watched on the big screen, though trying it on immersive home theatre might be fun

 

[tima]

I think there are likely quite a few examples of very good to excellent implementations of each typology, but it seems to get narrower when considering truly great tables.

Is there the same level of consensus for a direct drive table as there is for the EMT 927 and Saskia idlers or AirForce Zero and American Sound belt drives? Perhaps the Grand Prix Monaco 2.0 or Rockport? If we could narrow it down to 2-3 tables in each class, which type would be the most coveted?

If there is consensus it should begin with agreement on the sine qua nons for any turntable:
- stable accurate speed
- low noise

Start there, do these, then talk about implementation and other factors such as drive type, bearing, etc.

Not on the list: zebrawood plinths, etc.

The attached PDF from Peter Moncrieff / IAR is not about its title, the Rockport Serius III. It is a deep dive into the 3 current turntable topologies. I consider it essential reading for anyone who wants to understand the issues associated to turntables and why the above two criteria are what they are. Some of the issues discussed have since been addressed or ameliorated by technology more recent than the article. Link to article

Moncrieff: "Our conceptual foundation, our key starting point, is simple. Speed. Speed is the last great hurdle in turntable design, and no one has really conquered this hurdle. Until now."

 

[Tango]

I feel for @Tango who has never tried a direct drive

I had a Denon when I was in high school. The one that looks like a flying saucer.

 

[adyc]

15w motor power coresponds to the torque of a 200 kg rotating platter.

So the audio note claim could be correct. Too bad they use a rubber belt for those motors.

Can you enlighten me how to translate torque to angular momentum? As far as I know the relationship between torque and angular momentum is

Torque = d(angular momentum)/dt

An object spinning with constant angular velocity does not need torque to maintain the spinning.

 

[Lagonda]

I’ve only heard mediocre belt drives. The list is long and boring and includes the usual suspects.

I trust great belt (or string) drives exist. Like really heavy ones a la: verdier, monster micros, etc. But ive never heard them.

Here’s a unicorn challenge: name a great belt/string drive (just drive) that can be had (new or used) for less than 10k usd. If thats too easy, try 5k usd.

Meanwhile heres a list of idlers and direct drives that can be had for reasonable money and plinthed and pimped to pretty much any level: Garrard 301/401, thorens TD 124, lenco L70/75, emt 930, dual 701, technics SP10/1200, top denon jvc sony kenwood dds, ...

Have to stretch it to € 10k, but this one should by all reports be excellent ! Not the latest model !

Vyger Indian Signature (736442960) | Gebrauchtgerät | Plattenspieler komplett | Angebot auf audio-markt.de

Angeboten wird „Indian Signature“ von Vyger als Gebrauchtgerät aus der Kategorie „Plattenspieler komplett“ bei audio-markt.de - dem Online-Marktplatz für High-End. Das Inserat mit der Nummer 736442960 endet am 01.07.2021 um 06:15 Uhr.

www.audio-markt.de

 

[microstrip]

In my audio journey the best sound to my ears was playback from EMt 927 with Coralstone diamond on a 6 ways field coil drivers speakers

Great. Can you give us more details on the system, such as electronics and speaker brands?
Or was it a DIY outcome?

 

[microstrip]

If there is consensus it should begin with agreement on the sine qua nons for any turntable:
- stable accurate speed
- low noise

(...)

You have just proved why there is no consensus - some of the great turntables are not "great" in these two properties. But yes, they sound great!

 

[microstrip]

Really? I made a couple of suggestions of each type. You claim the list is long in each. Can you name just seven turntables that are truly great of each type? Not merely very good to excellent, but the great tables. I am curious to know what you think are truly great turntables. How long is the list?

And why does OMA think there are no belt drives?

Just google in other audio forums - periodically threads are stated nominating great turntables.

In order to show how variable this list can be I consider the SME30, the Goldmund or the Continuum Caliburn great turntables - just nominating those I have significant direct experience, not shows or dealer demos.

 

[Lampie519]

I stated i am out of this discussion, but now i have to intervene as the arguements used are just technical incorrect or at least incomplete.

If i say "hysteresis" in a transformer everyone knows what that is, right?

There is a time lag with magnetics in a metal and it needs strong magnetic fields to overcome these forces.
Now in a DD system it will not show any kicks what so ever as the magnetic field of the rotating platter is not static and will not show a strong opposite pole (it takes time to rotate the magnatic polarity) so NO kick...

Plus the magnets in a DD motor are aligned in a way that they are just "off" (even amount of magnets against uneven amount of coils). So there is a constant movement between these as well.

Also will a moving magnetic field give feedback to the driving circuit (similar to a voice coil) and if you balance the damping of this circuit it will just have enough torque.....

"My two cents"

 

[audioblazer]

Great. Can you give us more details on the system, such as electronics and speaker brands?
Or was it a DIY outcome?

Goto drivers - 6 ways . 2 pass lab crossover . Emt 927 TT. KOETSU coralstone Diamond . DIY cables in his photography studio - Alan Soo of HK . Can’t remember other details

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Goto drivers - 6 ways . 2 pass lab crossover . Emt 927 TT. KOETSU coralstone Diamond . DIY cables in his photography studio - Alan Soo of HK . Can’t remember other details

I think it is this system to which you refer.

RICHARD H. MAK VISITS ALAN SOO

Mono & Stereo High-End Audio Magazine: Magico - Nagra - Tidal Audio - Wilson Audio - MSB - Totaldac - Living Voice - Taiko Audio - Aries Cerat -Thrax

www.monoandstereo.com

 

[jespera]

Can you enlighten me how to translate torque to angular momentum? As far as I know the relationship between torque and angular momentum is

Torque = d(angular momentum)/dt

An object spinning with constant angular velocity does not need torque to maintain the spinning.

Youre right. I goofed. You cant compare the power of the motor to the stored energy of the rotating platter. Sorry my bad. I can tell youre where I messed up but thats not particularly informative.

For whatever reason audio note seems to have made the same mistake.

 

[jespera]

Have to stretch it to € 10k, but this one should by all reports be excellent ! Not the latest model !

Vyger Indian Signature (736442960) | Gebrauchtgerät | Plattenspieler komplett | Angebot auf audio-markt.de

Angeboten wird „Indian Signature“ von Vyger als Gebrauchtgerät aus der Kategorie „Plattenspieler komplett“ bei audio-markt.de - dem Online-Marktplatz für High-End. Das Inserat mit der Nummer 736442960 endet am 01.07.2021 um 06:15 Uhr.

www.audio-markt.de

It even includes a fancy parallel tracker! And i can possibly even live with it not being the latest model.

But i will need to exercise all my charms to persuade the missus ...

 

[MrC.]

If there is consensus it should begin with agreement on the sine qua nons for any turntable:
- stable accurate speed
- low noise

Start there, do these, then talk about implementation and other factors such as drive type, bearing, etc.

Not on the list: zebrawood plinths, etc.

The attached PDF from Peter Moncrieff / IAR is not about its title, the Rockport Serius III. It is a deep dive into the 3 current turntable topologies. I consider it essential reading for anyone who wants to understand the issues associated to turntables and why the above two criteria are what they are. Some of the issues discussed have since been addressed or ameliorated by technology more recent than the article. Link to article

Moncrieff: "Our conceptual foundation, our key starting point, is simple. Speed. Speed is the last great hurdle in turntable design, and no one has really conquered this hurdle. Until now."

If you can locate it, John Bicht of Versa Dynamics fame wrote a white paper on what his priorities for turntble design were. They boiled down to "stiffness" which seemed to be between the arm and the vinyl disc to make sure there was minimal play or interference in the information between groove and needle. He therefore favored vacuum hold down, stiff connections between bearing and arm and a linear tracker that was of a high pressure air sort and a minimal length arm to hold the cart to remove resonances. A facinating deck that was apparently plagued by operational malfunctions related to the high pressure air needed. Customer service was also reputed to be non-existant. Still would like to own one to try.

 

[tima]

You have just proved why there is no consensus - some of the great turntables are not "great" in these two properties. But yes, they sound great!

Francisco, you give no examples and you told me you don't play vinyl very much, mostly digital, so I factor that into your answer.

 

[microstrip]

Francisco, you give no examples and you told me you don't play vinyl very much, mostly digital, so I factor that into your answer.

Ok Tim, actually it does not affect at all my opinions - everyone knowing for example an EMT 927 knows what I am talking about. But please factor also that I routinely listen in my system to vinyl played in a TechDas AF1P, use as a reference tape played in a Studer A80 or digital played in a DCS Vivaldi stack and do not sleep with an LP under my pillow.

And yes, mortal sin, I also loved and love the sound reproduction of the great Forsell Air Signature with the air bearing flywheel, that seldom is speed accurate.

 

[audioblazer]

I think it is this system to which you refer.

RICHARD H. MAK VISITS ALAN SOO

Mono & Stereo High-End Audio Magazine: Magico - Nagra - Tidal Audio - Wilson Audio - MSB - Totaldac - Living Voice - Taiko Audio - Aries Cerat -Thrax

www.monoandstereo.com

Yes . I heard the best Midnight Sugar in this system . Alan is a professional photographer & this system is in his studio with zero treatment & a huge industrial lot