Belt Drive Turntable sucks ? What do u thk

[Audiophile Bill]

Oh really? I never came across one and not sure if it's a good idea. Seems as though you wouldn't be able to maximise the potential of either system if both were present.

Yes I haven’t heard any of them properly myself (just shows). The new horn solutions one is direct drive and belt drive. The Reed Muse is idler and belt.

Sven from Horn solutions sometimes posts here.

 

[banpuku]

Yes I haven’t heard any of them properly myself (just shows). The new horn solutions one is direct drive and belt drive. The Reed Muse is idler and belt.

Sven from Horn solutions sometimes posts here.

Bill, please see email I sent via this forum. Have some questions about a motor replacement for Gates CB-500. Thanks, Pat

 

[PeterA]

Doesn’t the massive Apolyt get up to speed with an idler wheel and then maintain speed by switching over to a loose slipping belt?

 

[Lagonda]

For precisely the reason that no technology is superior I have at home a Garrard 301 (Idler), SP10Mk3 (DD) and MS 8000mk2 (Belt). They are all good and none wins convincingly over the others imo. They also impart very different flavours allowing one to pick and choose depending on your mood and music choice. Now all I need is one TT where you can switch between all 3 modes of propulsion with the flick of a switch.

I am sure VPI is working on something, probably not very good, involving a lot of Hurst motors and rubber wheels and manny rubber bands !

 

[microstrip]

A cartridge in general has 2 points on a record where it is exactly on axis (with a non linear arm). It will therefore be off in all other cases. The choice now is to figure out where you will benefit the most of an exact alignment and where it will give the least issues if not.

Guru_protractor.pdf (vacuumstate.com)

The fact that the alignment error is continuously varying during playback is ignored by most geometrical analysis, that focuses just on maximum or average errors, ignoring the slopes of the variation. I have once read an article on this issue, but can't remember the details.

BTW, what would people say if their amplifiers distortion varied in such way during playback of a recording?

 

[XV-1]

Without claiming any particular specific expertise myself, the cullings over the years from the various critics and commentators seem to fall into generalized observations about each topology:

DD: energetic presentation (for better or worse), possibly dry, possibly with so so bass

Belt: smooth (for better or worse, maybe too smooth) but capable of hefting very large desirable mass effect platters

Idler: PRAT (real, imagined, or whatever), with enjoyable rumble intermodulations and dither to spruce things up.

I can't see any problem with any of these in well executed efforts. However, it does allow a 'fashion cycle' for sales promotion, rotating the various types, where the 'old' suddenly become new again. And, maybe a few religious wars for entertainment.

Can't say I totally agree with your generalized observations of DD, or at least the top echelon of DD.

energetic presentation - well correct speed - yes. Can sound a little dry vs a belt drive - eg Linn or high mass.
bass is the best part, continuous in the way it stops and starts with no overhang where belt drive in comparison slower and fuller. Top belt drives seem to have better high frequency "air" and space, which if the DD had that, they would be pretty well perfect for myself.

@Ked - do all vintage DD's sound similar? yes and no. both mine have a similar level of bass control and balance is similar. Technics is more muscular in its presentation and the ultimate in rock n roll, electronic music. P3 is smoother and a little more laid back.

@ Howie has the balance 100% right - Garrard 301 (Idler), SP10Mk3 (DD) and MS 8000mk2 (Belt) - envious Howie I gotta visit you in HK if travel is ever allowed again when the hifi show is on. luv to hear those 3 tables together.

 

[howiebrou]

Can't say I totally agree with your generalized observations of DD, or at least the top echelon of DD.

energetic presentation - well correct speed - yes. Can sound a little dry vs a belt drive - eg Linn or high mass.
bass is the best part, continuous in the way it stops and starts with no overhang where belt drive in comparison slower and fuller. Top belt drives seem to have better high frequency "air" and space, which if the DD had that, they would be pretty well perfect for myself.

@Ked - do all vintage DD's sound similar? yes and no. both mine have a similar level of bass control and balance is similar. Technics is more muscular in its presentation and the ultimate in rock n roll, electronic music. P3 is smoother and a little more laid back.

@ Howie has the balance 100% right - Garrard 301 (Idler), SP10Mk3 (DD) and MS 8000mk2 (Belt) - envious Howie I gotta visit you in HK if travel is ever allowed again when the hifi show is on. luv to hear those 3 tables together.

Anytime Shane. Quarantine is now one week only this way I believe but I guess going back is an issue still.

 

[Direct Drive]

Do vintage DDs like Micro, Technics, Pioneer, Kenwood, Luxman sound similar? Anyone

Not necessarily similar, but they have similar traits: speed accuracy/precision, timing. However each has strengths and weaknesses which are subtle in cases.
The motor type (and there is quite a variety) an effect, high torque, low torque etc. change the delivery, as do the materials used in the design.

 

[bonzo75]

Not necessarily similar, but they have similar traits: speed accuracy/precision, timing. However each has strengths and weaknesses which are subtle in cases.
The motor type (and there is quite a variety) an effect, high torque, low torque etc. change the delivery, as do the materials used in the design.

So when you listen to them there are similarities?

 

[astrotoy]

I thought that only vacuum hold down platters suck. Larry

PS. For a little while I owned one of the Versa Dynamic TT's. They had an air bearing linear arm and vacuum hold down platter. So they could suck and blow simultaneously.

 

[jespera]

Without belaboring the controversies, the theory of the underhung arms is that pragmatic tracing behavior with the ultimately determinative forces at the groove will always trump the theoretical mathematical 'tracking' stuff belabored by the various over hung gurus and 'other arm' proponents. So, they make a distinction between 'tracing' and 'tracking', since tracking theory does not necessarily result in real world better tracing behavior. You close one can of worms in vinyl, you seem to open up several others no matter what you choose. (Hmm, is it better to be over hung than under hung? Guess that's another biologic controversy).

The 'under hung' arm has a single null point, requires no anti skating or other elaborate groove correction, compensating artifices required of over hung arms. The claim is that you get better groove tracing and phase coherence as a result.

I have the table and something works, because within the limitations of my customary cartridges and vinyl chain, it is the most detailed vinyl playback I have heard. That would tend to support the phase coherence argument, but don't ask me to wade the installed fanaticisms of the other arm types.

Interesting. So maybe its the elimination or reduction of (dynamic) skating forces that give parallel trackers and long arms their advantages. Rather than lower tracking angel error.

 

[Direct Drive]

So when you listen to them there are similarities?

Similar only really in the speed accuracy/precision, timing. The presentation varies.
The SP10 is ballsy, particularly with an FR64x.
The Onkyo with a FR64x is very subtle by comparison, almost delicate with great detail and quiet, what I think some call blackness. Frank Schroeder who has one has said it was the quietest turntable he had heard, or not! (It is a low torque design with an idler startup motor). The Kenwood sits between the two.
Each seems to suit a genre (maybe I have utilised arms and cartridges to suit).
The 301 for blues and jazz, the Thorens 124....not so sure; SP10 was made for electronic (particularly1980s) and pop; Onkyo acoustic, female vocals, Americana; Kenwood rock, Americana, Prog.

 

[XV-1]

Anytime Shane. Quarantine is now one week only this way I believe but I guess going back is an issue still.

yep, two weeks quarantine in AU when you get back. And the govt has banned any non essential travel out of AU - you need to think up some essential procedure to give me

 

[tima]

Oh really? I never came across one and not sure if it's a good idea. Seems as though you wouldn't be able to maximise the potential of either system if both were present.

If one was obviously superior to the other people would ask "why can't I just buy that one." If they were simiar, "why do I need both?"

Or would they dumb one down to achieve "equity" ?

 

[howiebrou]

If one was obviously superior to the other people would ask "why can't I just buy that one." If they were simiar, "why do I need both?"

Or would they dumb one down to achieve "equity" ?

Luckily for us we all have our personal preferences although I wouldn't mind seeing a resurgence of Direct Drive and Idler tables.

 

[jespera]

Hi,

No disrespect to OMA cos frankly I love their product designs etc but I find it mildly disingenuous myself to claim they are building these “turntables” where in reality (as you say) they are “only” building plinths. It is a very different thing entirely to be building the entire thing. Some might think that this is semantics but not me. Anyway - best of luck to OMA cos I find their vids and products really interesting.

Best sounding show room that ive been to. By far.

 

[MrC.]

I think it is this system to which you refer.

RICHARD H. MAK VISITS ALAN SOO

Mono & Stereo High-End Audio Magazine: Magico - Nagra - Tidal Audio - Wilson Audio - MSB - Totaldac - Living Voice - Taiko Audio - Aries Cerat -Thrax

www.monoandstereo.com

What a nice setup. How well do the horns image and integrate together? Do you have four electronic crossovers per channel?

 

[MrC.]

The fact that the alignment error is continuously varying during playback is ignored by most geometrical analysis, that focuses just on maximum or average errors, ignoring the slopes of the variation. I have once read an article on this issue, but can't remember the details.

BTW, what would people say if their amplifiers distortion varied in such way during playback of a recording?

I think the question is less whether there is measurable errors as opposed to whether those errors offend the ear. Right now the clicks, pops and sizzles on my vinyl discs offend my ears less than the pristine sounds of digital reproduction. I've spent lots of money and time trying to get good sounding digital and have basically given up on that. The sounds reproduced by a vinyl disc is also distorted more by the off center of the hole in the record than by most other types of distortion. If you are using a spherical stylus, I wonder if the distortion of a tonearm offset matters at all.

 

[MrC.]

I thought that only vacuum hold down platters suck. Larry

PS. For a little while I owned one of the Versa Dynamic TT's. They had an air bearing linear arm and vacuum hold down platter. So they could suck and blow simultaneously.

Always wanted to hear a versa. How did you like it and why did you sell it?

 

[astrotoy]

Always wanted to hear a versa. How did you like it and why did you sell it?

I bought it used. Strange story, my regular dealer at the time, knew that I always talked about getting a super turntable (back about 25-30 years ago). He calls me one day and says he is helping out the widow of one of his customers, sell his super high end components, including a Versa Dynamics 2.0 (I think that was the model - the second level one). The price was right and they included a van den Hull Grasshopper Gold III cartridge in the package. The customer, a dentist, had committed suicide. Anyway, I got the TT with its enormous pump which did both the sucking and blowing and had to be put in a closet to keep it quiet. When it worked, it was amazing. But the problem was it was was so complex and didn't work about half the time. John Bicht, the owner of Versa Dynamics, I think at that time was getting out of making high fi equipment, but was still carrying parts. I would get a diagnosis, order a part, fix one thing and then something else went wrong. Eventually I gave up and sold it for a reasonable amount to someone who must have had better DIY skills than I did. Unfortunately, it spoiled my adventure into linear tracking arms (I previously had an ET-2 (don't remember the brand) which was also a linear tracking arm with an air bearing. I went to a VPI, which was super reliable, though not as SOTA as the Versa. I joked (maybe half joked) that I understood why the dentist committed suicide.

Larry