Aesthetix Io Users Group

[audioquest4life]

My poor back...its testing time again. So I have dragged the Io halfway out of the rack, partly on a chair, so I can see the back, but only barely, due to my short (Kimber kcag) phono cable. Two days ago I fumbled at the back, using my fingers to "guess" the jumper positions - and it turns out I was right, I had in fact moved the jumpers from position 5 (121 ohm) to 7 (425 ohm). No wonder we had a great listening evening yesterday, with some more air and treble, and less of the "subdued" feeling with the 121 loading. Actually it was Ralph Karsten at Atma-sphere who suggested trying 121 ohm, but it may have been in connection to somewhat over-eager new compression (treble) drivers in the Dream Maker speakers, not yet fully broken in - not sure. But he wrote "try" - not "keep it there" - yet I had halfway forgotten about it. Now, I can try different loading / jumper positions - and will report back.

There seems to be two main ways to think about this. One is the capacitance calculation way, presented in the Lyra Atlas manual. According to this, the loading should be ca 800 ohm, in my case. The other is "the less loading the better" way, presented e g in some of the posts from Ralph. If the phono preamp is up to it, drop the extra loading, use the 47kohm standard. (Unless I understand it wrong!). What I think ca everyone agrees on, is that this is ultimately an individual decision, let your ears decide, like anything in audio a lot of variables come into it, the room, the system, the power situation to your home, and not to forget, the position of the planets - just joking. It seems that most Atlas users prefer a load at ca 4-500 ohm, but I have no reliable statistic. I searched in my audio log for comments from Aesthetix, and found a sentence to the effect that one should search for balance - between a too high loading (low ohm) making the sound dull, and a too low loading (high ohm) making it too bright. I'll try.

Audioquest4life - are you saying that the Io is fairly immune to RFI? Or, not so immune? The latter is my impression.

Yes, in a way...not sure anything is entirely immune to RFI unless it is specifically built that way incorporating MILSPEC or some government standard to withstand RFI. Breaking this thought process down, I do believe the Io is built to such a high standard, that it is more immune and less likely to be influenced by RFI issues. Hence, my statement that the Io is built to such a high standard, that perhaps recommended loading values for someone who owns an Io skews to less loading = better performance, although, not in all instances. That is why your point about each system and the variables starting from the source to the output, and finally, our ears, will influence what we perceive as acceptable. That is also why I stated earlier; that there are no absolutes to this subject, only what sounds right. It is such a fickle hobby we have.

I have the same Aesthetix statement in my mind always when I am swapping cartridges. They even specify to find this balance for which we all seek to make our systems sound good.

I hope you don't hurt your back messing with the Io on the rack. It is hard to put those resistors into place if you don't have access. They are easy if you have full access. I have to either pull the rack out or slide it out at an angle and then squeeze behind with a small lamp, cell phone most of the times, lean forward and sideways, and fumble around behind barely seeing the number, LOL. A small telescopic mirror and a portable desk spot lamp would be useful.

 

[OGH]

Dan31 - Ok and your Io has not given up ;- I know one can hotswap a bit, regarding tubes, but better be extra careful.

 

[audioquest4life]

I change my jumpers with the system on, just not when actively playing music.

I do the same, but I mute the preamp, turn down the volume, and switch to a different input. Can we, or should we be able to remove resistors on the fly without taking all of the steps I mentioned? What would be the consequences if we remove or add resistance while playing music?

 

[OGH]

Audioquest4life, thanks, indeed I use a flashlight, telescope mirror and magnifying glass. Since I can only drag it a bit out, unless I move the turntable as well. Not practical. I have a living room which is also a listening room. Had it been the other way, I would have full access to the stereo system from the back, of course.
I don't know if the Io is built to be immune to RFI issues. My impression is just, maybe not. Maybe because it is so "puristic". It takes on anything, and doesn't meddle with it.
This is why I compared it to my Meade ETX-125 astro Telescope. Make one footfall, and the picture is lost, unless the foundation is 100 percent stable. Why do I think the Io is so "perceptive"?
1 Turn on the Io to LOUD volume (be careful) without playing music. Can you hear different electro disturbances, in the background, maybe your fridge turnin on and off?
2 We had the burglar alarm system box, in the same room as the Io, sending regular "bursts" of data each 8 minute, giving a huge scratching sound, through the Io. We had to relocate the alarm box.
3 When a mobile phone in the room gets some call or message, the Io - fully on - will tell you, too. Scratching noise. Though it seems, this was worse some years ago, than now.
4 Overall, this noise - whether RFI or something else - is less disturbing, with the Einstein preamp in the chain.

 

[OGH]

This is somewhat off topic, but I would like to mention, if you like the sound of the Io, check the Audioquest Nightowl or Nighthawk headphones. They are very comfortable and offer some of the same sound I get in my main rig. You can only get them second hand. I bought one owl and one hawk last year, and very glad I did. Sure, they are in the "forgiving" zone of headphones. Yet the better the recordings and the digital file format, the better they sound. No affiliation to Audioquest, just telling. If you want the "analytical" headphone approach, maybe look elsewhere.
More debate here

 

[audioquest4life]

3 When a mobile phone in the room gets some call or message, the Io - fully on - will tell you, too. Scratching noise. Though it seems, this was worse some years ago, than now.

I used to have similar issues with the cell phone in the room with the Io. Since I built a nearly soundproof room with extensive damping and resilient channel, Quietrock sheetrock, I no longer have cell phone radiation being picked up in the room.

 

[OGH]

I tested 425 ohm vs 47 kohm (no jumpers). Cohen: First we take Manhattan, original LP. This one was easy. 47 kohm is not for me. Cohen sounded strange. 425 clearly better.

 

[Lagonda]

I tested 425 ohm vs 47 kohm (no jumpers). Cohen: First we take Manhattan, original LP. This one was easy. 47 kohm is not for me. Cohen sounded strange. 425 clearly better.

A somewhat overproduced, digital recording from 1988, always sounds a little strange.

 

[OGH]

At last, the holy grail? Testing 1 kohm (position 8). First impression: Very interesting indeed. Promising. Cohen's First we take Manhattan now sounds good, not weird, like with 47 kohm (no jumpers). With 1 kohm there is more air and clarity, easier to hear both voices, especially compared to the 121 ohm position (number 5), but also the 475 position (number 7)(sorry, I wrote 425, above). Since I have never tested 1 kohm much, I follow dan31's advice: the resistor needs to settle - I should give it more time, before I decide. It may well be that I land on the 475 position, like Kcin, but this "airier" presentation should be given a chance. I don't hear much detriment to the bass, so far. But I wonder if it makes the treble a bit too insistent, in my system. The Atlas is certainly "inquisitive", often more so, than when I stream the same music from Qobuz, thru the Teac NT-505, though I would not call it "bright". It offers a lot of treble information, passed along by the Io, which possibly excites my treble drivers a bit too much. These are PRV Audio D290Py-B compression drivers (in Audiokinesis Dream Maker speakers), which clearly lifted a veil, compared to the original Eminence drivers, but the x-overs may not be quite optimal (Duke at Audiokinesis wrote - they should work OK, but now you are on your own!). An old advice is, if the treble is a bit too much, try lowering the arm. The SME V armboard supplied with the Hanss T-30 only allows me to set the arm parallel to the record. I cannot push it further down, at the back. Maybe I should go to a machine shop to shave off ca 3-4 mm to the height. However I have tried to simulate this, using two fo.Q mats, that changes the platter height a few millimeter upwards, which is = lowering the arm at the base, without hearing much difference. Or rather, it dampens the treble, OK, but I think mainly due to the mats, not the height. I do prefer the Hanss T-30 "direct", without a platter mat, since I think that the greater clarity and overall more information, weighs more, than the minus (a bit of aluminium "glare").

My point here, is like before: changing the loading is a very interesting experiment. But watch out, are we really trying to solve problems elsewhere in the system? The testing can help clarify the situation. For the record: I am testing with the volume at ca 13 - 15 o clock on the Io, usually around 14. I have become very aware of the volume factor. Unless this is the same, across tests, the results will be invalid. At 14 o clock volume, I measure 88 db C-weighted from the listener position. With swings up to 90, or down to 82 (with my Velleman analogue db meter). This sounds "involving" and still "pleasant". If I go higher, it becomes more involving of course, but problems / distortion is also more easily heard. For some reason (zen in the machine?) the "volume window" allowing optimal sound is wider, with the preamp (Einstein) in the chain. Here as elsewhere - the Io has a very "puristic" approach. I am testing also with Cerapucs under the Io main unit. Doesn't harm, but probably not the optimal feet (they do their best job on heavier equipment).

Throughout this testing, I am happy with my MA-1 mk 3.2 amps. They do a very good job. Formerly, I had the Krell FPB600, which was very good in some ways, but I was always wondering about the solid state sound. Now, I have have no problems. Or, I have been "conditioned" to tube sound. Doesn't matter to me, as long as it sounds good, to my ears. And the MA-1s have been a great investment, pairing very well with the Io, with or without a preamp. Since these lack output transformers, and have a very clear (not tubey) presentation, you can really hear what goes on, with different loading, or other adjustments.

 

[OGH]

Maybe, you have some suggestions - albums I should try, at 1 kohm? Maybe I have them, on LP.
My impression is, an "optimal" audiophile album, or a very good recording (example, Shelby Lynne, Just a little lovin) will often sound good regardless, especially if it is sparse and not so dynamic / demanding music. So this may not be the ones to use.
This is why I test with non-optimal albums like Cohen's 80s productions (and others). But of course, if they are too bad, they can't be used.

If we would like to check the Io loading, an easy way to do it, would be to check the digital version of the same album or song. Yet we also face the problem that what we hear from digital is in fact not quite the original LP. It has been remastered or reworked, in some ways. So, easy A-B testing - what does it sound like from the LP, compared to the digital recording - is in practice often not so easy (my experience from Tidal, and now, Qobuz). There are many variables at play, like we say in audio ; - )

 

[audioquest4life]

r some reason (zen in the machine?) the "volume window" allowing optimal sound is wider, with the preamp (Einstein) in the chain.

This seems to be a common remark with regards to your experiences of using the Io with a preamp versus not using a preamp. You certainly have the latitude to experiment with various settings to achieve your listening goals. Sounds like your are discovering the balance of good sound qualities with the other load settings in the Io.

I lIke to think of this verse from Nights in White Satin (Moody Blues) when we are experimenting and pondering our results, it is sort of deep thinking. “
“But we decide Which is right And Which is an Illusion”

 

[OGH]

Thanks - great comment! Our ears decide - I will test, with the Moody Blues!

 

[OGH]

OK here we go. Testing with Atlas at 1 kohm load. First, Moody blues: Nights in white satin, from the original LP on Deram. Still sounds good. Next, from the Mofi version of the album. Sounds a bit better, clearer in some ways.
With these albums, I don't feel that the treble is "overpowering" the rest, or not so much - it seems a minor factor - not sure.
Distortion problems are most easily heard in the treble. Even if the cause of the problems may in fact be elsewhere in the system.

 

[audioquest4life]

I am going to have dig out my original Deram copy as well. How did the portion of the song Nights in White Satin sound “Breathe Deep, the Gathering Gloom” sound? This portion of the song seems like close close mic recording with deep chesty and articulate vocals. It stands out to me compared to the rest of this song. If you have any loading issues, I think this part of the song might Highlight them..the voice should be commanding with no sibilance

 

[Kcin]

Does anyone know - can I change the position of the loading jumpers while the Io is on (with volume zero), or does it need to be turned off?

OGH
Trying to keep up, are you running your loading experiments with the Io straight or with a pre?

I don’t believe the Io is particularly immune to RF - you must take all precautions with it -up to and including moving the Io or other interfering equipment cell phones near by are a no-no

I hot jump the loads -volume down ,alternative input-they are shunts so no big deal- I also do this with tubes to quickly isolate noisey ones if they occur-same precautions

After my Eclipse mod all my loading is done internally on loading boards the external pin board on rear is disabled -still a pain but a lot easier than the rear apron - this is an upgrade to current production

Jim white really could do with an upgrade for creature comforts- a relay based loading switch that is remote controlled - it really wouldn’t take much to do lots of room in there and you could use the plate for the remote VC option to outboard it if necessary-you could add source switching with relays close to the input too for those of us that have it


I really believe custom umbilicals would be a big upgrade- I have bits of info on the umbilical config -even ordered the multi pin connectors. It would be a huge undertaking even with the schematic. I may poke around and get the blanks filled in —maybe someone out there has complete info- or. I may reach out to Aesthetix if I feel super ambitious

 

[Lagonda]

Maybe, you have some suggestions - albums I should try, at 1 kohm? Maybe I have them, on LP.
My impression is, an "optimal" audiophile album, or a very good recording (example, Shelby Lynne, Just a little lovin) will often sound good regardless, especially if it is sparse and not so dynamic / demanding music. So this may not be the ones to use.
This is why I test with non-optimal albums like Cohen's 80s productions (and others). But of course, if they are too bad, they can't be used.

If we would like to check the Io loading, an easy way to do it, would be to check the digital version of the same album or song. Yet we also face the problem that what we hear from digital is in fact not quite the original LP. It has been remastered or reworked, in some ways. So, easy A-B testing - what does it sound like from the LP, compared to the digital recording - is in practice often not so easy (my experience from Tidal, and now, Qobuz). There are many variables at play, like we say in audio ; - )

Early Dire Straits, two first albums, have decent sound and are analog recordings. Bob Dylan "Slow train comming" is also analog and good sounding.
Paul Simon "Graceland" and "The Rhythm of the Saints" are digitally recorded, but good sounding.

 

[OGH]

We have decided to let the Io run for a while, with 1 kohm loading. It sounds good.
Kcin - yes, I am testing with Io (w volume) direct to the MA-1 amps. The preamp is on repair.
Lagonda - thanks for good music tips!

 

[OGH]

Disregard this post if you don't like details...main message, 1 kohm seems fine.

Audioquest4life asked «How did the portion of the song Nights in White Satin sound “Breathe Deep, the Gathering Gloom” sound? This portion of the song seems like close close mic recording with deep chesty and articulate vocals.»

Quite right! A very good test for listening to the loading and cartridge behavior!

I did the following tests.

A) listening to this part of the cut The Night, 5:50 in. Streaming from Qobuz.

B) same thing, but now listening to the 2017 remaster, from Qobuz.

C) Deram original LP (1967).

D) Mofi version of the LP (1976).

Now you are excited, right? Which one was the winner?

Digital A) and B) were OK, but clearly below the analog (C, D). Hey Io and Atlas, thanks!

Among the digital, I like A) better than B). Maybe the voice is somewhat «corrected» in B (remastered), even deeper, but it sounds closer to me in A, and the ambience – the sound your hear between voices and instruments – is better there (typical of originals vs remasters, I find).

Among the analog cuts, I first thought – the loading is off, I heard several ticks / small noises in C). But then I thought, maybe it is in the groove, I bought this record used, and since I hear the ticks only in the left channel, it sounds like it has been played with a non-correctly setup cartridge (wrong antiskating, damaging one channel). Then I tried cut D), which is silent, no ticks, so the loading clearly is not the issue.

I maybe prefer D) to C). Mofi used a still quite fresh copy of the master tape, without the typical dull treble as years go by. There is maybe a bit of the «smiley» frequency curve adjustment they were sometimes critisised for. The treble is stronger than on the original. So it is a matter of taste. But for me, the Mofi is the winner. The voice is even closer to me. The tonal color – is the voice chesty and deep enough – yes. Seems OK, not too light-weight.

So, the conclusion is, the Atlas / Io can work very well together, with a 1 kohm loading. I will keep it there, for a time, to get used to it, and the resistor «settling down». Maybe, all in all, better than the step below (475 ohm).

 

[audioquest4life]

Another group I used to test loading variables is to listen to the Bee Gees. Specifically, the MFSL 1-263 BEE GEES " TRAFALGAR " (MFSL-ANADISC-200GRAM VINYL version. This recording version is sublime. The whole fist side is great, but these three songs stand out as having outstanding vocal and ambient qualities which spotlights vocals in a most remarkable way
How Can You Mend a Broken Heart, Israel, The Greatest Man in the World

Another album I listed to last night was Billy Joel "The Stranger". Just the Way you are, Scenes from an Italian restaurant, She is Always a woman. These songs are great vocal, sax and some piano tests.

 

[audioquest4life]

I maybe prefer D) to C). Mofi used a still quite fresh copy of the master tape, without the typical dull treble as years go by. There is maybe a bit of the «smiley» frequency curve adjustment they were sometimes critisised for. The treble is stronger than on the original. So it is a matter of taste. But for me, the Mofi is the winner. The voice is even closer to me. The tonal color – is the voice chesty and deep enough – yes. Seems OK, not too light-weight.

Glad you find a correct setting testing out the Mood Blues Night in White Satin album. Now, I am curious, I discovered that I have the same MFSL version of this Moody Blues album. This will be a lunch time test as I am really curious as well to see how my current loading (10K) will sound with that album. Really, I think 47K and 10K are real close. Lower numerically, takes aways the life.