Aesthetix Io Users Group

[audioquest4life]

Hi OGH,

Thank you. The Io is connected to the Jubilee preamp directly. The Opus 1 was icing on the cake so to speak. The Atlas is no slouch either. Have you tried various loading options with Io direct connection to amps versus through the Einstein and then amps and made comparisons in sound. Oh yes, you did, I see your reports from above…but did you play around with loading? I am not sure if it makes a difference, but in this hobby, experimenting seems to be the norm in order to achieve the best results.

 

[OGH]

I have not experimented much with loading. In my rack, getting to the back of the Io is not so easy. It is 125 ohm now. Maybe too much loading. 243 or 475 might be better (or even less). There were subtle but not dramatic differences, with the Atlas, the last time I tested, if I remember right, some years ago.
A first impression - we had a listening session, now with the Io direct to the MA-1 amps. Results somewhat surprising. My wife and I both thought that female jazz vocal (Diana Krall), solo piano (Nils Petter Molvær: Its snowing on my piano - great record) sounded very good, direct and intimate. Rock, like the Doors: Strange days (original, and Analog productions 45 rpm) was another matter. We missed the more muscular, beefy sound we get with the Einstein in between the Io and the amps. I find that I want to turn the Io volume higher, without getting what I want (it just starts to sound "too loud"). (All this with the 125 ohm loading).

 

[dan31]

If possible I would give the 475 ohm and 1000 ohm load a try for your Lyra. Understand these resistors may not have been used before so it may take a few sessions to settle with the new load.

 

[OGH]

Thanks, dan31 - I will try...

 

[Kcin]

FWIW I use 475 with the standard Atlas. I have yet to try the Atlas lambda in the box. 125 would certainly not be as expressive from my experiments- all systems are different though.

If your Einstein had a gain of say, 18db are you shocked that you have to turn the Io VC up?

 

[dan31]

This a repeat for most on WBF, Johnathon Carr from Lyra participated in a cartridge loading thread on WBF with great insight from the perspective of a cartridge and electronics designer.

Loading a MC cartridge is really tuning or equalizing the circuit including the cartridge. Some users adjust VTA to give greater highs or lower high end based on the changes in geometry and effect on the cartridge VTF. If someone has adjusted their cartridge using these parameters they may need to zero out these adjustments to a neutral setting to get the full effects of lessening or unloading a MC cartridge. I run my Lyra at 1000 ohms on the Io, 475 is a bit meatier with a touch of a reduction in dynamics. The Lyra Connoisseur phono had a fixed load of 10,000 ohm at one time.

 

[OGH]

I have read lots of debate on loading, including informative posts from Jonathan Carr. But I wonder what Jim and Glenn at Aesthetix think about this. Anyone knows?
Kcin - no surprise that I have to turn the Io volume up, compared to having the Einstein preamp in the chain. However the main issue is the character of the sound, not the volume. By the way, the Io sounds fine from the Aux input, which I use for digital (from the Teac NT-505). No need for a preamp, there. A bit of a paradox.

 

[audioquest4life]

Agree, many opinions and varying points of view based on specific individual experiences with regards to cartridge loading. Many other audio related things as well. Perhaps Mr. Atmasphere can chime in about loading. His remarks mirror my investigations and experiences with my recent Air Tight Opus 1…I find that 10k and 47k sound the best on my system with the Io plugged directly into the Jubilee preamp. I don’t have volume on my phono amp and i think I am at 62 db gain. I normally listen 1/4 level volume for normal listening and halfway volume level for high levels. My Jubilee is switched to low gain setting. Octave specifies to use high or low gain depending on the efficiency of your speakers. With 16 ohm and 101db speakers, low gain on the Octave Jubilee preamp is perfect and works great with the Io.

This gain has worked fine for me thus far for many different cartridges. When I drop the load numerically, it seems as if bass is slightly less articulated and not as taught sounding as at 10 or 47k. Same with mids and highs, lower number loading equates to a slight loss of details and air. In fact, I notice this more so with the Air Tight than with my Benz LPs or Hyperion. Again, these are subtle and not gross changes, but enough for me to hear the difference. I

I wonder if the insides of a high performance cartridge such as with the Opus 1, “ultra-high-µ core material (named SH-µX), which, because of its high saturation flux density (three times higher than conventional high-µ materials) allowed for a dramatic reduction in the number of coil windings (thus suppressing core-saturation losses and lowering impedance), while also generating the high voltage necessary to energize music from the top octaves to the bottom ones.” means the varied loading values are something a user needs to experiment with. There are no published recommended loading Numbers for the Air tight which tells me, anyone who owns one of these will figure out what works best for them and if it’s in 200s or wide open 47k, that’s okay, as long as it sounds good to you. I am now convinced that there is no wrong or right loading…just adjust to your liking. One other thought, perhaps, Jim Whites design principles for the Io are what Atmasphere mentions in his response about loading…if you need to load a cartridge, it mostly is a condition of the phono amp not being immune to RFI. I believe the Io exhibits this trait in my experiences. I always though wide open sounded better for most MC cartridges I have used.

And I quote Mr. Atmasphere here:
“Cartridge loading is for the benefit of the phono section not the cartridge, which does not care a bit how you load it unless you get too low- at which point its output will decrease. FWIW a LOMC cartridge cannot 'ring' (distort) at audio frequencies; its inductance is too low.

A LOMC cartridge will produce noise at a very high frequency (+100KHz) due to the interaction (resonance) of the inductance of the cartridge in parallel with the capacitance of the tonearm cable (and the input capacitance of the phono section). This is essentially RFI (Radio Frequency Interference) injected directly into the front end of the phono section and it can be as much as 30dB higher than the output of the cartridge.

If the phono preamp is unhappy with that it will not sound right- it might sound 'zippy' and you may get additional ticks and pops caused by high frequency overload. If the phono section is immune to the RFI you won't hear any difference due to loading.

So you should always try the highest loading setting possible; the industry standard for cartridge loading is 47,000 Ohms.

If you have to load the cartridge to get things to tone down and sound right, the additional load that the cartridge is driving is extra work that it has to do. This will cause the cantilever of the cartridge to be a little harder to move as it is interacting with the generator in the cartridge. The result of this can be that the mechanical resonance of the cartridge in the arm may not be what you expect.

MM cartridges behave the same way, but the resonant peak is not as high and is much lower frequency owing to the much higher inductance of the cartridge; they do require loadingbecause the inductance is so high the cartridge can actually 'ring' if not loaded properly. But that's a different topic.”

 

[OGH]

My poor back...its testing time again. So I have dragged the Io halfway out of the rack, partly on a chair, so I can see the back, but only barely, due to my short (Kimber kcag) phono cable. Two days ago I fumbled at the back, using my fingers to "guess" the jumper positions - and it turns out I was right, I had in fact moved the jumpers from position 5 (121 ohm) to 7 (425 ohm). No wonder we had a great listening evening yesterday, with some more air and treble, and less of the "subdued" feeling with the 121 loading. Actually it was Ralph Karsten at Atma-sphere who suggested trying 121 ohm, but it may have been in connection to somewhat over-eager new compression (treble) drivers in the Dream Maker speakers, not yet fully broken in - not sure. But he wrote "try" - not "keep it there" - yet I had halfway forgotten about it. Now, I can try different loading / jumper positions - and will report back.

There seems to be two main ways to think about this. One is the capacitance calculation way, presented in the Lyra Atlas manual. According to this, the loading should be ca 800 ohm, in my case. The other is "the less loading the better" way, presented e g in some of the posts from Ralph. If the phono preamp is up to it, drop the extra loading, use the 47kohm standard. (Unless I understand it wrong!). What I think ca everyone agrees on, is that this is ultimately an individual decision, let your ears decide, like anything in audio a lot of variables come into it, the room, the system, the power situation to your home, and not to forget, the position of the planets - just joking. It seems that most Atlas users prefer a load at ca 4-500 ohm, but I have no reliable statistic. I searched in my audio log for comments from Aesthetix, and found a sentence to the effect that one should search for balance - between a too high loading (low ohm) making the sound dull, and a too low loading (high ohm) making it too bright. I'll try.

Audioquest4life - are you saying that the Io is fairly immune to RFI? Or, not so immune? The latter is my impression.

 

[dan31]

Some of those resistors have not been used in a long time if ever. Try to give each setting a few sessions. I am going to play with 10k just to give it a fair try. 1000 has been a steady load for my Lyra. As you unload the cartridge the differences may seem less apparent. 1000 is close to the 800ish suggested. The 400 range is a happy in between many manufacturers such as Lamm use for a fixed load.

 

[OGH]

Dan31, which Lyra do you have?

 

[dan31]

I have the Kleos. It is not close to the performance of your Atlas. It is designed in the new angle generation. The loading guidance provided by Lyra appears to be the same for the new angle series of cartridges. I am using a Spiral Groove tonearm.

 

[OGH]

I am sure, rightly adjusted, the Kleos can sound very good! I've been a Lyra fan for a long time - first, Clavis DC in the late 90s, then, Titan, Titan i, Atlas in 2013, and - due to stylus missing in action - a new Atlas 2018. Each one has been a clear improvement. A friend of mine has the Etna, which is also good. I have never heard the SL low input versions, probably better-sounding, but in my case - at least - the Io needs a healthy input to wake up properly. Like the 0.56 mV of the Atlas. Otherwise, the background tube noise becomes too loud, and the cart sounds more dull. Although the Io (with the most quiet tubes) is "able" to drive carts down to .25 or even .20, it does not mean this is optimal. But maybe I am wrong, here.

 

[dan31]

I think I am in the same camp of using a cartridge with a reasonable output with the Io. No doubt LOMC can be matched with excellent tubes. If someone is committed to the cause it would be a great road to travel.
I have a 4 year old so I’m thinking I should stay where I’m at as far as cartridge cost. I can afford to go for the Atlas or Etna Lambda. I may go for the Etna when it’s time to rebuild, which should be soon. Just not getting long listening sessions for the past 4 years and likely the foreseeable future. No complaints, my family is my clear priority of choice. Lately I listen before I go to bed on headphones. The Kleos is keeping me happy. I just changed loading to 10K. I’m sure it will be a while before it settles. I will keep it at 10K for a few weeks.

 

[OGH]

Sounds great - and yes, priority to your 4 age old!

You are right, with the Io, tube / cart matching indeed comes into play. All in all, I've liked Telefunken ECC83/12ax7 most, in the first gain stage, where they have most influence on the sound - but need to be ultra quiet - as you know of course. Since these are so hard to get, I am now enjoying Philips 12ax7 made at the Herleen factory, in the 70s, that are also very good indeed, although a bit different than the Tele's.

I have a friend with a Lyra Etna - it sounds very good. Maybe I still prefer Atlas. Not sure. He has a much more pin-point system than mine, with Magico speakers and s-state amps, while I use dipole / reverberant Audiokinesis speakers (supposed to play "with" the room) and tube amps. It may be - just a guess - that the quite 'explosive' Atlas functions well in my rather "mellow" system, while the somewhat more subtle (?) Etna works better in his system. Just speculating, here - we have not A - B tested.

 

[OGH]

I think, the better you learn to adjust and tune the Kleos, the greater the chance that an upgrade - in the future - will be rewarding. I do know of some early Lyra carts that were very hard, or almost impossible, to get right. My friend had a Helikon, and complained, he could never quite get it right. My Clavis was a bit of the same. And the Titan. But from the Titan i, and then the Atlas (and Etna), things improved.

 

[OGH]

Just one more note. When we are adjusting loading on the Io - we should think about, what is the problem we try to solve - what is the cause. I gave an example, above. Over-eager new treble drivers + 121 ohm loading = superficially better sound, less insistent, but not really adressing the problem.

 

[OGH]

Does anyone know - can I change the position of the loading jumpers while the Io is on (with volume zero), or does it need to be turned off?

 

[dan31]

Great observation. All of our systems are different. Various states of break in or component matching. Our rooms make such a difference. One system cannot be compared to others. Some are sensitive to treble. Some prefer tight bass. It’s all so subjective. Turntable and arm comparability and setup. Cables and all various downstream components. The Lyra cartridges do send a lot of energy into the arm as well.

I do listen in the near field to keep my room from contributing to much to the direct sound.

I can say the 10K sounds great over my headphone system. Effortless and dynamic. I will listen over speakers at some point.

 

[dan31]

I change my loading jumpers with the system on, just not when actively playing music.