Natural Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
- Start date
Are you seriously asking folks to believe that a relatively modern (chronologically)designer and manufacturer of audio electronics recommended *specifically* a transducer that :
Was manufactured halfway into the last century , on an entirely different continent , no longer in production by the original manufacturer , of a fairly common design and straightforward to manufacture topology, truncated in the lower register and rolled off in the upper , quite ‘coloured’ tho harmonically dense through the midranges , difficult to source new or recently manufactured , ergo not a particularly astute recommendation as a symbiotic commercial product for his own current business model , I could go on .
Or… are you perhaps conveying a somewhat more believable conversation , where Mr Lamm , having reviewed the vintage transducers available from David Karmeli’s stock list at the time, merely recommended that a Easy Load , High Sensitivity , Horn Loaded transducer , such as those Vitavox over in the corner , would be a suitable match for SE amplification as manufactured by his company ?
I do find it rather curious that this most specific and particular reference to Vintage Vitavox CN-191 horn transducers , as being a *particular* recommendation to prospective customers of his amplification , does not seem to be mentioned or referenced elsewhere in any published article or interview with Mr Lamm or indeed written in any LAMM Audio material pertaining to his products ?
Last edited:
I would guess that he recommended the Vitavox, over say something like the $850,000.00 Wilson Audio WAMM Master Chronosonics, is because the Vitavox (and other old technology horn speakers) can sound just as good (or better) for a fraction of the cost. Change/modernisation does not necessarily equate to improved (like digital).
I don't think Argo is making a point Wilson WAMM is better, but it is that old Tannoy, Altec, JBL and many others will also qualify for that criteria, as will some new ones.
Not specifically, however he certainly is implying that a new manufacturer like Lamm to suggest the use of old technology and speakers that are no longer being marketed would be incredulous.
Vladimir Lamm recommended this specific combination to David Karmeli. There is more to the story, but sadly neither gentleman is here to share it.
What is fascinating to me is Vladimir’s access to this stuff while in Russia. He had other interesting recommendations also.
Last edited:
Mike
I think no one can test all audio equipments (like virtual grounds/ac cables/ac filters/…) in his home but most of us have checked many of them.
I played instrument some years and I am not far from live unamplified music so I can say I never find “black background” in live music.
I saw most ac filters (both parallel and series), virtual grounds, ac cables, high feedback pre/powers increase background blackness. I know these filters lower the background noise but they also block micro dynamics. If your system is not capable of showing full low level micro dynamics then you could not detect the harmful effect of ac filters.
I think no one can test all audio equipments (like virtual grounds/ac cables/ac filters/…) in his home but most of us have checked many of them.
I played instrument some years and I am not far from live unamplified music so I can say I never find “black background” in live music.
I saw most ac filters (both parallel and series), virtual grounds, ac cables, high feedback pre/powers increase background blackness. I know these filters lower the background noise but they also block micro dynamics. If your system is not capable of showing full low level micro dynamics then you could not detect the harmful effect of ac filters.
Lol. That's because the idea does not apply to live music, only to recorded music heard through a system
And if you used well designed equipment you would not need ac filters...
i fully agree that treatments, whatever they may be, can reduce micro-dynamics in their effects. makes sense it can happen.
so i understand your point about micro-dynamics. but are you saying 'black backgrounds' = is the same things as......reduced micro-dynamics?
or are 'black backgrounds' a different thing? it seems to me that 'black backgrounds' have more to do with recordings, than gear. the absence of ambience, or a recording mixed where voices or instruments are isolated from the venue. something different than optimal realism in the event. for example some electronic music is obviously, intentionally made with black backgrounds, and still be enjoyable for what it is, realizing what it's not. and we don't use that as a reference for realism either.
if you can think of a treatment or tweak that causes 'black backgrounds'? not reduction in micro-dynamics, that was my question to you.
i do think that if a tweak raises the noise floor, or adds a veiling, then it would cover 'some' ambient information. but most tweaks are intended to cause the opposite effect. however, this 'effect' would be a different thing than a 'black background' although it might be related to it.
and i don't want to beat this dead horse, i'm fine with no answer and we can move on. thanks.
Last edited:
Beautifull picture peter.
Looks like some great timeless history packed together
The fact that V Lamm recommended this combo gives it a special aura indeed
That floor is 250 years old and some of those marks are from moving around Magico speakers. I’m glad you like them. They tell a story and add character. You should have seen the condition before I stripped five layers of paint and oiled them when we bought the house 30 years ago.
The location of those marks also clearly shows why I was happy replacing my Magicos that needed to be out into the room with much more room friendly corner horns that look like furniture. Beyond purely sonics, aesthetics and utility also played a part in the decision process.
Last edited:
I d love to hear it
Next week i ll be working in the US ( sioux falls )
A bit out of the way , lol
Next week i ll be working in the US ( sioux falls )
A bit out of the way , lol
There seem to be some misconceptions about why Vladimir Lamm recommended these speakers to David Karmeli. One should realize that these two men were great friends. David asked Vladimir years ago what speakers he thought would get the most out of his amplifiers. After hearing the ML2, David prioritized the amps, then the speakers. He asked Vladimir for his personal recommendation for the speakers that would sound the best with the ML2. David was looking for his own system. This was NOT a recommendation for the general public, but only to David, his close friend. Vladimir suggested a pair of Vitavox CN 101, earliest version and a couple of other rare speakers. He knew full well that these corner horns in good condition and earliest version would be extremely difficult to find, and I think in fact he doubted that David would fine a pair. David found one, and spent twenty years searching for a matching one. The history of each speaker is fascinating as they were on different continents around the world and David traveled to inspect each one. Years later, this is the only known pair to still exist, and it is in original and excellent condition. This pair represents a moment in time, and is unique. Never was this pairing meant to be a general recommendation to the public.
Vladimir made some other very interesting recommendations for other speakers and turntables. The two men spent years discussing this stuff. For general commercial Lamm/speaker suggestions, one can simply research which speakers Lamm demonstrated with at shows and read about which speakers Vladimir used at home. He did have commercial affiliations and interests. These corner horns fall outside of that and are something different.
As speakers became more difficult to drive, Lamm developed the hybrid and solid state designs. I used the M1.1 monoblocks with my Magico speakers for about a month at home. That match was excellent also. Of course some people use the ML3 with older more efficient Wilson models and with big Kharmas. I have heard the latter combination which is also excellent. The ML2 requires an easy to drive and efficient speaker. There are some choices out there.
Vladimir made some other very interesting recommendations for other speakers and turntables. The two men spent years discussing this stuff. For general commercial Lamm/speaker suggestions, one can simply research which speakers Lamm demonstrated with at shows and read about which speakers Vladimir used at home. He did have commercial affiliations and interests. These corner horns fall outside of that and are something different.
As speakers became more difficult to drive, Lamm developed the hybrid and solid state designs. I used the M1.1 monoblocks with my Magico speakers for about a month at home. That match was excellent also. Of course some people use the ML3 with older more efficient Wilson models and with big Kharmas. I have heard the latter combination which is also excellent. The ML2 requires an easy to drive and efficient speaker. There are some choices out there.
A lovely photograph … I recall it from the several times that you have uploaded it previously .
Last edited:
Thank you for this history, Peter. I appreciate that you have elevated this history to the status of legend. The way David hunted down Vitavox candidates and created a matching pair definitely is a cool story!
It is a bit puzzling to me that Vladimir recommended to David a loudspeaker of such particular configuration -- a corner horn -- when David's listening room didn't require corner speakers due to the dimensions of his room or due to aesthetic considerations. As Kedar suggests in an uncharacteristically measured comment other speakers satisfy the high impedance, high sensitivity criteria of your Vitavox.
Do you happen to know of Vladimir's auditioning experience of other high impedance, high sensitivity loudspeakers?
It is a bit puzzling to me that Vladimir recommended to David a loudspeaker of such particular configuration -- a corner horn -- when David's listening room didn't require corner speakers due to the dimensions of his room or due to aesthetic considerations. As Kedar suggests in an uncharacteristically measured comment other speakers satisfy the high impedance, high sensitivity criteria of your Vitavox.
Do you happen to know of Vladimir's auditioning experience of other high impedance, high sensitivity loudspeakers?
I had conversations with Vladimir Lamm and read his writings and interviews. He held proprietary knowledge close. I don't recall him recommending in print any speaker brand or model, generally or in particular. That there is no published reference to Vitavox from him is no curiosity. Fwiw, there is a level of information on circuits, components, systems, acoustics and tuning that gets shared confidentially. No different from other professions.
Ron, this was a conversation that took place long before David ever moved to Utah. As I understand it, it was simply about amp speaker pairing, independent of room context. The recommendation was not about what would work. It was about what would sound best.
Vladimir formed these ideas in Russia and he and David were very close. As Tim wrote, their conversations were private, between good friends.
Last edited:
Similar threads
