Aesthetix Io Users Group

[OGH]

audioquest4life - Todays AC cables perform way better
Have you experienced this, changing cables to the Io power supplies?
(I have sort of grown tired of cable changes, those I have a fairly good...I think)

 

[Kcin]

I'm not shocked at the performance of Telefunkens in the first stage at all.

At this level investing in 4 TFKs is probably mandatory.

Telefunkens are consistently the most low noise and stay that way- ECC83's that I have used across all NOS types and new production. They will last for years.

Frankly, I can't be bothered with current production and the anxiety and issues with noise whistles and rustling. I made the investment in the Telefunkens and probably have several dozen pair ready to go when needed. I buy them 2 at time and cull them for noise.

On tube pin cleaning- I polish all pins with a fiberglass pencil if really bad, and then with the green Yamaha instrument polishing cloth. Wipe down with 99,9% IPA really well- spray a little deoxit gold on a cloth- very little- wipe on the pins-- wipe off. Nothing ever in the sockets. I clean sockets with IPA and disposable dental cleaners. Tremendous increase in performance for over 15 years of Io ownership. YMMV.-- same process for all connectors but no fiberglass pencil- polish only. Its like you've invested in a new system for free when done. It takes some commitment - but then the Io does anyway.

 

[audioquest4life]

Audioquest4life - proverbial whistle in the first stage
Can you describe? Some sort of hum, or interference?
When I do the tube noise testing, with the volume unrealistically high (two thirds of max maybe) in order to get clear readings from the db meter, I can hear whatever goes on, electrically speaking...even with a dedicated line. Like maybe there is a radio station trying to say something. A couple of years ago we had to move the alarm box away from the listening/living room since it was sending data bursts to the central every 8 minute, sounding like a noise storm through the Io. I still hear a tiny bit of interference, now, maybe it can be improved with some cable dressing but as long as it is so low I can live with it. In my system, now, the noise level from the Io is quite similar (a tiny bit louder) to the noise on the digital input. Quite a change.

I experienced similar interference years ago before I built the listening room bunker. In my previous rooms, cell phone signal, errant noises from other things would occasionally be heard when the phono stage source was selected. Now, with the bunker….nada. I purposely moved my phone around in the room and the Io did not pick up stray noise. No more of that irritating buzz from Electonics. Now, the room is a virtual dead zone for wi-fi devices.

The whistling noise is a separate issue and is specific to a tube inducing that type of noise. It’s a noisy tube. Eliminating the external source of noises, EMI, RFI, etc., allowed me to focus on just listening to music and other things if they present themselves. This is a short primer about whistling tubes.

Noise ad microphonics in vacuum tubes

 

[OGH]

kcin - thanks!

"At this level investing in 4 TFKs is probably mandatory.

Telefunkens are consistently the most low noise and stay that way- ECC83's that I have used across all NOS types and new production. They will last for years. "

TFK good yes - but mandatory? maybe nuance a bit?

TFK tubes may last long, but these also get higher noise levels over the years, I know from experience, and I dont know if their track record at this point is better than the rest. TFK was not the only game in town. Other types of NOS can do very well also, like my Philips from the Herleen factory, early 1970s. They have a bit more electric / rock type of sound to them, which I like, comparing with the Tele tubes I am testing now.

I am very familiar with the TFK sound having used their tubes in the Io for many years, it is only some years now that I have listened to the Philips NOS. Had it not been for their rising background noise level, I could live well with them for some more years. Even if, coming back to Tele now, I recognize an all in all larger sound palette. Yet somehow their sound signature make me think of Beethoven. Not Johnny B Goode. But the Tele needs to be played more, before I can say.

 

[OGH]

The effect of reducing background tube noise:
Replacing the four tubes in the first gain stage, the background noise has dropped 8 db.
Note that, the noise was quite low, from the start. We did not hear it, at moderate sound levels, or even louder levels, within the music itself. However, it became noticeable, and intrusive, leaving the system on, and between tracks.
It became gradually higher, so we heard it in quiet music passages also.
So what is the effect of changing to selected low noise tubes?
The music sounds a bit louder, a bit closer. Probably, because the noise level is reduced.
Therefore there is more information, and more to register - and maybe to worry about for audiophile ears.
But this is my hobby, and I think we are right to follow it, happy go lucky - no worry.
I played Beatles Revolver, the mono mix, and the new 22 mix, on LP. Both sound great. The 22 does not sound artificial or disconnected. The bass is a bit wooly. Maybe since the Tele tubes are not burned in.

 

[OGH]

Better tubes plus more fine-tuned cartridge setup = easier to hear that most of the variation is actually in the recording, not the system. So 'wooly bass' in the Revolver 22 mix has to do with (debatable) producer decisions, giving Paul's bass much prominence on some cuts. Not the tubes.

 

[OGH]

New test results with different tubes in Io first gain stage.
Method, volume high, no music, turn up so tube noise can be heard, I am using the Velleman analog AVM2050 db meter, ca 10 cm in front of the speakers. Testing as quads - two tubes in v1-v2 in each channel.
Results quite equal left / right.
JJ selected by Aesthetix 2017 - left speaker 55 - right 55 db
Sovtek LPS - 58 - 58
Philips Herleen NOS (worn) - 64 - 64
Telefunken NOS selected - 54.5 - 54.5
In other words - and confirmed by listening - the JJs and especially the Tele pass the test, LPS in the middle, while the Philips fail.

 

[oldvinyl]

Fozgometer testing, well worth it, still going on.
Anyone with advice, what do you do with your very good NOS tubes in the first gain stage, sounding musical as ever but gradually developing more background tube noise? Are these actually "low hanging fruit" later in the chain - in positions where the noise level is less critical? Should I try them in a later gain stage, or in a power supply - or are they best forgotten?

Any tube that is getting gassy - or starting to hiss/pop/rumble audibly gets thrown out. The noise will only increase over time. No point in moving them to another position or the power supply, they will impart their noise no matter where they are used.

But - I have found that black plate RCA, Tele's, Siemens, Mazda 12AX7 tubes rarely get noisy. They seem to last years.

 

[oldvinyl]

audioquest4life - Todays AC cables perform way better
Have you experienced this, changing cables to the Io power supplies?
(I have sort of grown tired of cable changes, those I have a fairly good...I think)

OGH - yes, I have replaced the stock AC cables with Nordost Odin cables. The stock power supply umbilicals were also replaced with a set of custom cables made for me by Audience. The power supply cables really lowered the noise floor. The replacement AC cables helped with dynamics of the system.

Cables were all replaced years ago. These days, I just sit back and enjoy the music (no more cable swapping).

 

[audioquest4life]

audioquest4life - Todays AC cables perform way better
Have you experienced this, changing cables to the Io power supplies?
(I have sort of grown tired of cable changes, those I have a fairly good...I think)

I should caveat that statement by saying today's cable have a better to price performance ratio due to trickledown technology from some manufactures high end and exotic cables. Of course, some tried and true cable geometries with appropriate shielding are stunning for what they offer. Case in point, Neotech OCC copper or silver cables are great and have a niche following in some of the audio circles I follow. Neotech cables are reasonably priced and if you order DIY you can add whatever connector you want. I used lots of Neotech power cables for years because they did not do anything to change the sound...the sound just comes through.

Specifically, for the Io power supplies I have used custom Neotech and then Shunyata Anacondas. I tried the Shunyata Sigma v2 NR cables on the Io but went back to the Anaconda's as I felt the Sigma v2 NR may have had a little too much etching in the sound. My opinion. I am with you, I don't want to be on a cable bandwagon either, that is why the Neotechs and the Anaconda's have been in the system forever it seems.

 

[OGH]

Oldvinyl - throw out noisy tubes - you are probably right. Although I am sad to see the Philips Herleen go, since I like their sound.
NOS tubes that stay low noise - not so easy to find, in my experience. I have several NOS and new, as extras - they are too noisy in Io first stage, but can sound good in other contexts, where the noise level is less critical (like my Ming Da integrated amp or Jade headphone amp).
cables - must check what i have, but to be honest, it seems quite marginal, with a dedicated line. Like the feet under io, if you have a good solid stand.

 

[OGH]

Dear friends

With better sound, I have rearranged my speakers. Earlier, I may have compensated for non-optimal azimuth by speaker position tweaks, and I want to correct this. But what would be the best way to do it? Start with just one speaker, get the best bass in the room? Place the speakers exactly symmetrical in the room? Or just use my ears?

I started with just my ears. The rearrangements yesterday were done just by listening, no measurements. Just small shifts of speaker positioning and toe-in. Listening to music.

Today I measured and found that I had positioned the left speaker was 182 cm from my listening chair while the right was 181.9 cm.

I was quite impressed. 1 millimeter difference. Not bad for old ears.

Yet the measures show that even if the listening triangle was perfect, the speakers are not quite symmetrically placed in the room. So maybe things could be improved even more. Advice welcome. I will adjust the levelling so the speakers fire exactly the same towards the listener since I know this matters. My speakers are heavy floorstanders, positioning them is not good for my back, but thankfully they are on gliders not spikes.

 

[OGH]

Oldvinyl wrote "The stock power supply umbilicals were also replaced with a set of custom cables made for me by Audience. The power supply cables really lowered the noise floor."
This is interesting and somewhat surprising. Any idea, how they did it? Is it costly?
My Io mk2 with one ps was upgraded at Aesthetix to partial Eclipse status (everything but the new chassis) plus a second ps in 2012. I've never noticed a difference in the noise level of the two umbilicals. One might guess that, at the Eclipse level, they would supply the very best umbilical. So I am curious, what kind of noise was lowered with the Audience version. My impression is that most of the tube noise comes from the first gain stage. Not the ps. Unless there is something wrong with the tubes there.

 

[oldvinyl]

Dear friends

With better sound, I have rearranged my speakers. Earlier, I may have compensated for non-optimal azimuth by speaker position tweaks, and I want to correct this. But what would be the best way to do it? Start with just one speaker, get the best bass in the room? Place the speakers exactly symmetrical in the room? Or just use my ears?

I started with just my ears. The rearrangements yesterday were done just by listening, no measurements. Just small shifts of speaker positioning and toe-in. Listening to music.

Today I measured and found that I had positioned the left speaker was 182 cm from my listening chair while the right was 181.9 cm.

I was quite impressed. 1 millimeter difference. Not bad for old ears.

Yet the measures show that even if the listening triangle was perfect, the speakers are not quite symmetrically placed in the room. So maybe things could be improved even more. Advice welcome. I will adjust the levelling so the speakers fire exactly the same towards the listener since I know this matters. My speakers are heavy floorstanders, positioning them is not good for my back, but thankfully they are on gliders not spikes.

I always start with the Cardas formula and then tweak from there. Cardas formulas The idea is to put the speakers in a bass null in the room, then adjust to get the flattest response. I also use a sound level meter and a frequency sweep. To finish it off, I use a recording with a good vocal that is centered to adjust width and toe in.

Once they are set, I mark the floor with blue painter tape if I need to move them so I can always get back to precise locations. My speakers are about 4 feet away from the back walls and about 8 feet apart. I find that the speakers need to be moved out into the room to get flat bass response and good staging and imaging.

 

[oldvinyl]

Any idea, how they did it? Is it costly?

All supplies are twisted pairs for V+ and V- and each pair is shielded. There is also a shield placed over the entire wire bundle. They also used an updated copper wire (higher purity).

I forget the cost, a couple thousand USD$.

So I am curious, what kind of noise was lowered with the Audience version. My impression is that most of the tube noise comes from the first gain stage. Not the ps. Unless there is something wrong with the tubes there.

The umbilicals are long wires that can act as antennas to pick up any noise. Even the rectifiers impart some noise. The twisted pair helps prevent incursion of any environmental noise. This also improves the grounding (or V- return path) and helps lower noise.

Keep in mind that 60, 70 or 80 dB gain will amplify any stray signal on the power taps. The best bet is to prevent the noise from getting in there.

 

[oldvinyl]

Any idea, how they did it?

I sent in my existing umbilicals, they ordered the connectors and used a DVM to wring out the wiring. They simply replicated my existing cables and connectors with their wire and added shielding.

There was also a set of umbilicals from Purist Audio Design (Porterhouse Audio) at one time. I also tried them, but found that they were too stiff to use in my equipment rack. They too lowered the noise floor and were very effective.

 

[OGH]

Oldvinyl - thanks. I run Io at ca 15 o’clock – 62 db gain, into my preamp. Fairly low, thanks to the quite strong 0.56 mV Atlas output. Now, with very low noise tubes in Io first gain stage, I don’t have a problem with background noise. My analog chain sounds as good as my digital chain, in this respect. Green light – noise is not a big problem. Yet it is interesting that the noise can be lowered even further, upgrading the umbilicals. This is probably more relevant with a lower output cartridge, like 0.30 – 0.20 mV.

 

[OGH]

Oldvinyl - my experience is, shielding is better some times, other times maybe not. In theory a cable can resemble an antennna - but is it in fact a problem? Shielding can also mean that the sound becomes less fresh and immediate...I think...just my subjective experience. I do prefer balanced cable to single ended, where possible. But my best single ended interconnect, which I also use as tonearm cable, is unshielded. Go figure.

 

[oldvinyl]

Oldvinyl - thanks. I run Io at ca 15 o’clock – 62 db gain, into my preamp. Fairly low, thanks to the quite strong 0.56 mV Atlas output. Now, with very low noise tubes in Io first gain stage, I don’t have a problem with background noise. My analog chain sounds as good as my digital chain, in this respect. Green light – noise is not a big problem. Yet it is interesting that the noise can be lowered even further, upgrading the umbilicals. This is probably more relevant with a lower output cartridge, like 0.30 – 0.20 mV.

OGH - as I may have said before, depending on whether you use balanced or single-ended output and the input sensitivity of the amplifier, it may be that a 15:00 setting on the Io requires the external preamp to lower (reduce) the signal.

In my system with balanced outputs, 15:00 setting the Io is "full body contact" listening level. It is not ear piercing, it is loud, forceful, full-bodied, impactful bass.

My "suggestion" (take it for what it is worth) is to try the Io at 12:00 or 11:00. That way, you will hear the preamp sonic signature more prominently.

For me, I just run the Io direct to the amp. The clarity and purity is very engaging.

 

[oldvinyl]

Oldvinyl - my experience is, shielding is better some times, other times maybe not. In theory a cable can resemble an antennna - but is it in fact a problem? Shielding can also mean that the sound becomes less fresh and immediate...I think...just my subjective experience. I do prefer balanced cable to single ended, where possible. But my best single ended interconnect, which I also use as tonearm cable, is unshielded. Go figure.

OGH - for signal cables, I agree that shielding can have various effects. The umbilicals from the power supply only carry the V+, V- and a ground -- no signal. Reducing noise on the power to the signal tubes will lower the noise of the system.