Aesthetix Io Users Group
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Did the ASR mini basis - a solid-state Riaa stage - sound less precise or detailed, compared to the Io? Maybe not so much; these aspects were quite good. A more recent versions - mk 3 - is supposed to sound a bit better. But the ASR clearly had less ability to engage my preamp and amps and project a large dimensional soundstage that sounded good and engaging in my room. Although, the detail was there, so to speak, "in principle". Yet the experienced detail and focus was less than with the Io. Even if maybe fairly equal on paper.
@OGH I can assure you that no start up/warm up ritual has any impact on the Io's proclivity to failure in any mode.
The tubes are used in there range of dissipation by design. With the right parts specified its about wear and tear-age and heat. If a part is incorrectly specified or has age related problems ( maybe the transformers-mine ran for almost 20 yrs before failure) then you will see failure. I would say running my unit for circa 20 years would suggest that the tubes and surrounding circuitry is rated within its design parameters.
More on transformers. They are specified by the mfr. to the subcontractor They pass the leakage test at point of manufacture. Over time , because of materials or construction methods -- or in rare instances , overloading or poor environment ( sea air, humidity) you could have insulation resistance breakdown.
Now modern materials generally are safe -but anything could happen . It is possible that the transformer was incorrectly specified for current and the heat , overtime, caused insulation break down and failure or intermittent failure - which is the worst kind. It is rare but I have worked on equipment that has leakage in the transformer that does not necessarily show its hand at idle and then it will intermittently short and cause downstream catastrophes. Generally, if you have some of your DC conditions on the test bench on initial analysis you pass on immediately suspecting a transformer. Its the worst kind of failure because its expensive an most transformers are custom and largely unavailable.
The quality of tubes have increasingly become suspect. Tubes can easily cause problems especially the one's that work hard as pass devices (el34) in the Io PS. They can potentially cause downstream collateral damage.
I must say that I absolutely don't like Chinese tube sockets for any application . I would say that 'most' manufacturers use Chinese sockets today ,out of necessity, and if you are a tube roller you will be in for headaches-- many times even if you are not. The quality of the metal and its spring action in the Chinese sockets is atrocious- without exception. If tube sockets are poor and you lose tension and thus bias, downstream collateral damage can occur.
The other thing is heat- you must have absolute clear unobstructed clearance above the Io. There is tremendous heat generated and you can trap it. You can affect component life and potentially warp boards over time. For example, the volume controls are enclosed in their metal case. If you overheat the chassis you are warping the VC in their own oven. It doesn't take much to affect the precision of the controls.
Hi Kcin, I just joked about rituals. I just turn my Io on, when needed. Based on the LOFO rule regarding the amps - last on, first off.
So, turning the system on, I start with the Io, next the preamp, and then the amps.
I will check what el34 tubes I have in the p-s. I would guess that transformer problems would often be audible (strong hum?) before any breakdown. I have no complaints so far. Although my first power supply (from ca 2002) has a bit more hum that the second one (from ca 2012). None of this is audible from the listener position. Or just very little. I think it is drowned by the general noise floor, made by all sorts of gremlins, like the needle tracking the music but also getting the noise from the vinyl, and whatever.
Some listeners find that the noise floor is anyway too high, with the Io. I don't agree. Maybe they just need to get the right system match - a robust MC cart with ca 0.5 output or so, correctly adjusted. And then, selected ultra low noise tubes especially in the first gain stage. Maybe the latest Io is low noise with carts down to 0.3 or even 0.2, I have not tried.
I agree 100 percent regarding heat. A quick and cheap fix is a computer fan on the wall or rack behind the Io or the p-s. Use a transformer and a resistor to get the fan to slow (silent) speed. I have two of these. They are good for hot days especially. Mainly I like to cool the room instead - but I live almost in igloo land. Norway. Cold climate a lot of the year. So the best way to get rid of excess heat - usually - is just opening the windows. Gradually becoming a luxury option, I know.
So, turning the system on, I start with the Io, next the preamp, and then the amps.
I will check what el34 tubes I have in the p-s. I would guess that transformer problems would often be audible (strong hum?) before any breakdown. I have no complaints so far. Although my first power supply (from ca 2002) has a bit more hum that the second one (from ca 2012). None of this is audible from the listener position. Or just very little. I think it is drowned by the general noise floor, made by all sorts of gremlins, like the needle tracking the music but also getting the noise from the vinyl, and whatever.
Some listeners find that the noise floor is anyway too high, with the Io. I don't agree. Maybe they just need to get the right system match - a robust MC cart with ca 0.5 output or so, correctly adjusted. And then, selected ultra low noise tubes especially in the first gain stage. Maybe the latest Io is low noise with carts down to 0.3 or even 0.2, I have not tried.
I agree 100 percent regarding heat. A quick and cheap fix is a computer fan on the wall or rack behind the Io or the p-s. Use a transformer and a resistor to get the fan to slow (silent) speed. I have two of these. They are good for hot days especially. Mainly I like to cool the room instead - but I live almost in igloo land. Norway. Cold climate a lot of the year. So the best way to get rid of excess heat - usually - is just opening the windows. Gradually becoming a luxury option, I know.
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Hi OGH,
I don't find the noise floor high at all and I use the Etsuro Gold at 0.3mV and the Koetsu Jade. There is no question though, the Io loves the GFS at about double that output. Tubes make a difference in the front positions. They (V1-V2) must be selected for noise if you don't have the means to do it yourself- get it done professionally. I don't find selecting tubes a chore as I would expect everyone that has a high performance piece of equipment would go down the selected tubes route regardless.
Enjoy.
My new Io Eclipse is shockingly quiet for a tube phono stage.
I could not find any fancy, expensive NOS tubes nearly as quiet as Jim White's stock tubes. I abandoned my tube swapping project, at least for the first three gain stages.
I could not find any fancy, expensive NOS tubes nearly as quiet as Jim White's stock tubes. I abandoned my tube swapping project, at least for the first three gain stages.
Kcin - and others - one more note.
You write "would say running my unit for circa 20 years would suggest that the tubes and surrounding circuitry is rated within its design parameters."
I basically agree. The main reason for the long repair that i experienced, was probably my own mistake. I thought it could be treated much like a solid state phono stage, keeping it on for long periods. I was wrong. Due to too much heat over time, components including the volume controls developed problems. Another factor is that I used it as a preamp, using the volume controls all the time. The exact cause of the failures was not disclosed by Aesthetix at the time of repair. I don't think they knew exactly.
But is it "crappy quality" if your phono stage requires repair after ten or twenty years of use? Please go away if all you have to say is that the Io is crappy and a better alternative is this or that.
You write "would say running my unit for circa 20 years would suggest that the tubes and surrounding circuitry is rated within its design parameters."
I basically agree. The main reason for the long repair that i experienced, was probably my own mistake. I thought it could be treated much like a solid state phono stage, keeping it on for long periods. I was wrong. Due to too much heat over time, components including the volume controls developed problems. Another factor is that I used it as a preamp, using the volume controls all the time. The exact cause of the failures was not disclosed by Aesthetix at the time of repair. I don't think they knew exactly.
But is it "crappy quality" if your phono stage requires repair after ten or twenty years of use? Please go away if all you have to say is that the Io is crappy and a better alternative is this or that.
Hi Ron
"Shockingly quiet" - I am impressed. Although thinking also, not overdo this, we are listening to music, not quiet. What is your comparison? An earlier Eclipse version?
I am happy to hear if Aesthetix has improved the Io. Looking forward to your further listening impressions.
My impression with a new set of Aesthetix stock tubes - ca 2018 - has also been very good.
"Shockingly quiet" - I am impressed. Although thinking also, not overdo this, we are listening to music, not quiet. What is your comparison? An earlier Eclipse version?
I am happy to hear if Aesthetix has improved the Io. Looking forward to your further listening impressions.
My impression with a new set of Aesthetix stock tubes - ca 2018 - has also been very good.
This is exactly how I feel. The only exception is that the V1/V2 stages seem to give up the ghost sooner than the other positions. Specifically, I have noticed a low-level whistle coming from the Io in the V1/V2 after prolonged use. My solution is to swap out the tubes for Sovtek 12AX7LPS. These were the tubes in the Io V1/V2 stages in its original form back in 2005 when I purchased it brand new. Works great. Perhaps, I should reach out to Glen for a replacement set for the V1/V2. Aesthetix spends considerable amount of time matching tubes for each unit.
Running the equipment 24/7 for a year would put 8,760 hours on the tubes. All tubes in Io would essentially be past their prime and needing replacement. 12AX7s are rated for 10,000 hours. The EL-34 are rated for 2,500 hours.
Running hot will shorten those numbers. Good ventilation is essential for the life of tube equipment.
Please see posts earlier in the thread about power supply upgrades that lower the noise floor. The new Aesthetix wound transformers and the new capacitors really make a difference. Same with shielded umbilical cables between the power supplies and the phono stage.
So, I opened up one of my power supplies to check out the power supply tubes as I was getting ready to make some tube orders. The power supplies in this one power supply seem to be of the older variant and not the new ones. At least I don’t see or can’t tell if anything has changed. I have a few of the original power supply pics and these look the same to me. This is what I received back from Aesthetix. I will check the second power supply tomorrow to see if that has similar power supplies or something different. I was told I was getting the new power supplies when I made the order to upgrade to partial Eclipse with dual power supplies.
New power supply
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@audioquest4life your links don't seem to work for me. The first pic is the old transformers with the varnished coloured core. The second pic is the new transformers that are primarily black. Capacitor changes in the PS and control unit were part of my mod to the new transformers. In the control unit the coupling caps that are gold colour were part of the partial Eclipse mod-- the gold caps are stealth caps and are the primary part of the partial Eclipse mod.
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Tubes in power supplies? My two power supplies have two different sets of 12AX7 tubes. My older power supply has Tung Sol 12AX7 and the newer power supply that I added has JJ 12AX7 tubes. Being that there are six in each power supply, would having different sets of tubes in each power supply negatively affect the sound qualities of the music? I am thinking maybe not as the tubes in the power supplies are not signal related, only part of the voltage rectification circuits. Anyone know otherwise? I do plan on matching the tubes as I don’t want to have any tube mismatches in any of the circuits, power or signal. Maybe I am a little OCD about matching tubes.
The 12AX7s are in the voltage regulation, not the rectification. Nit pic aside, the critical aspect is low noise and low microphony. The quieter, the better. I often run tubes in the phono stage for a couple years, then move them to the power supply.
Currently, my power supplies use low noise matched Telefunkens. They were in the phono section for a couple years. It is super quiet.
While the matching is not as critical in the power supply, you can match tubes in the first position in the left and right supply, then in second position in the left and right supply, etc.
As long as the tube rush noise level is the same in both channels and gain is well matched, then your current tube selection and position should be fine.
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These are the original transformers, not the new Aesthetix in house ones.
Here are the new ones. The older ones had the caps upgraded to bring it up to date, somewhat.
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Finally getting around to sorting out my tubes that I have collected over the years. Since we moved last year, I am still digging through boxes that were in storage.
I found a stash of RCA 6SN7 GTBs. These must have been for the Io but I never got around to installing them. Well, onwards…these are some great tubes for the Io in the 6SN7 position. The mids are very nice without any hints of strain in any of the frequencies. I would say a very well balanced tube. The only thing I notice is that they have slightly more lower listening level tube rush. It’s the same thing like others who roll vintage tubes in the Io…great sound, but low level tube noise. I am pushing just 3 watts according to the Mc2301 meters and the music is glorious. Okay, my speakers are about 101plus db efficient so low level for me can be .30 watts.
I am expecting GL and Mullard 6SN7s and EL34s to try out next. I am not tube rolling anymore until after the Super Bowl as I am hosting about 15 people and its music and football all afternoon and evening with lots of drinks and food. I don’t want to mess anything up in the system when it sounds so damn good as is right now. Everything else is stock Io tubes with the exception of the V1/V2 tubes which I replaced with Sovtek 12AX7LPS as the stock JJs went tube rush nuclear after a few months.
I am totally satisfied with the sound capabilities of the Io with mostly stock tubes but a littler pepper here and there adds just a slightly different and maybe better flavor. Who knows, my wife says it sounds great as is and leave well enough alone before I blow up something, lol. Must be hint to stop messing with greatness and leave well enough alone.
I found a stash of RCA 6SN7 GTBs. These must have been for the Io but I never got around to installing them. Well, onwards…these are some great tubes for the Io in the 6SN7 position. The mids are very nice without any hints of strain in any of the frequencies. I would say a very well balanced tube. The only thing I notice is that they have slightly more lower listening level tube rush. It’s the same thing like others who roll vintage tubes in the Io…great sound, but low level tube noise. I am pushing just 3 watts according to the Mc2301 meters and the music is glorious. Okay, my speakers are about 101plus db efficient so low level for me can be .30 watts.
I am expecting GL and Mullard 6SN7s and EL34s to try out next. I am not tube rolling anymore until after the Super Bowl as I am hosting about 15 people and its music and football all afternoon and evening with lots of drinks and food. I don’t want to mess anything up in the system when it sounds so damn good as is right now. Everything else is stock Io tubes with the exception of the V1/V2 tubes which I replaced with Sovtek 12AX7LPS as the stock JJs went tube rush nuclear after a few months.
I am totally satisfied with the sound capabilities of the Io with mostly stock tubes but a littler pepper here and there adds just a slightly different and maybe better flavor. Who knows, my wife says it sounds great as is and leave well enough alone before I blow up something, lol. Must be hint to stop messing with greatness and leave well enough alone.
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