Alsyvox - Hi end Munich 2022 - your thoughts

[Zero000]

Consider this.

The front/rear baffle of the Alsyvox design is like a sieve.

That's a compromise of dual sided magnets WRT the membrane.

In the Alsyvox design, the front panel is far more compromised than an Apogee or Magnepan. It loses a lot of essentially free radiating area due to this design element i.e. front and rear mounted magnet arrays.

I would also argue it causes diffraction effects that are clearly audible. I am pretty certain I heard it as a non-homogenous incoherent element of the design in the 2019 Hi-Fi Deluxe demo. A bit like everything has been split up into tiny pieces.

Unsurprising.

I am just saying the design is compromised, as any sensible engineer would know it is. As indeed any design is.

WRT to the earlier harsh sounding criticism by the Apogee owner and elsewhere. C'mon - any speaker that can't or doesn't or won't ever sound harsh is almost certainly rubbish i.e. is inaccurate and incapable of telling the truth.

But then again no speaker is capable of telling the truth. Just as in politics.

With harshness my only recommendation is to try and find the levels you feel to be in line with your expectations and adjust your equipment accordingly.

 

[Alrainbow]

part of your comment has a little fact mixed in with conjecture
did you tow your panels in the past ?
I never seen Maggie’s or apps towed
mine either but it’s a given mine has curved sides for I think time and stage effects

now there are modes that some have done to my Mids to help in standing waves inside the cage front and back.
it helps yet kills ambience a bit

no design is flawless always some kind of trade off
but what I heard in person
was a naked sound
that saying there here falls short of in fact as I heard

never did they sound in anyway muddy nor offensive
add to them not needing massive amps
enter many tube amps possibilities

from what I heard is a very improved panel speaker that is not like other panels I have heard including mine.
it is fast but has dynamics with extreme low end clarity
find a set to hear them comment back here.

 

[BillK]

I've listened to Apogees and Alsyvox regularly and I've never heard the "diffraction" effect you speak of; it's just not there regardless of whether you feel it should be.

In fact I hear what I call "beaming" from most conventional speakers - where you can tell a trumpet coming from one channel is not coming from "over there" in space but rather from that midrange driver there - quite often.

Just recently I was listening to a pair of new B&W 802D4s and they sounded very impressive until I tried a track that demonstrated this effect (2;09 into "And When I Die" by Blood, Sweat and Tears) and the 802D4 just failed completely, and from that point on it was impossible not to hear it. Even my long time salesman at that dealer admitted to it.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, I think that's a fair analysis
In fact, along those lines... when they were first demoed here (down unda) it wasn't too great at all. Driven with an Electro-companient, however you spell it... 60grand integrated amp. First impressions were the midrange was concave, sort of sucked out in the middle, didn't have depth either, sondstage was decent though. Subsequent demos, I didn't come across the EC amp but with other brands, sounded much improved. It was not until about a year later that I had the opportunity to audition with CJ and Dan'Ds designs. Now, that was totally different and in a class of its own!

Having formerly owned many versions of Maggie's, Apogee's and Stats (Quads & ML's), having heard the Alsyvox for the first time was quite different. They were very easy to drive, and that was one of the main design elements. To be able to drive regardless of what types of amplifiers owners had, whether low or high powered... In most cases when you change speakers, you may also need to change amplifiers because of compatibility issues but in the case of the Alsyvox, it didn't seem to be.

So, being used to the Maggie, Apogee, Quad and ML sound, I really wasn't prepared for this "unique and new" type of sound reproduction from a beautiful looking planar that costs a fortune! Maybe that's why the wifey also prefers stats and couldn't adjust to this new thing, plus considering the exhorbitant price in Aus.

The asking price range in Aus goes through the roof! At that level, there are so many other options; Neolith, Zellaton, Genesis, Pendragon, Rockport, Magico, Wilson, Audio Analysis and so on...

Then there was one other private demo where that owner had the CJ ART monoblocks (the original Art's). On this occasion with the Alsyvox it was awe-inspiring! So I'm not sure whether any amp will do... yes, any amp will probably drive it playing tunes... but the question is the quality of music, the refinement and definition, will that be compromised?

Leaving aside the pricing, I think what happens in most cases is people hear these for the first time, they're not quite prepared for what to expect. Then when they hear about the pricing, negative thoughts set in and that forget it attitude kicks in... Perhaps with the right kind of setup, in the perfect settings with top quality gear, these are superior, most probably.

From what I initially heard to the last time I heard them with different types of gear, the latter was most definitely far superior. When I do get a chance hopefully next Feb to listen once again to the upgraded Botichelli-X then I'll know.

Until then, I'm enjoying my humble CLX's.
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ

 

[BillK]

The asking price range in Aus goes through the roof! At that level, there are so many other options; Neolith, Zellaton, Genesis, Pendragon, Rockport, Magico, Wilson, Audio Analysis and so on...

Quite true - but to my ears, the Alsyvox beats them all, it's not even close.

Certainly they beat the Wilsons, and I've never heard the Magicos sound good - maybe someday, but it hasn't happened yet (same with Rockports, actually.)

Really the only speakers I've heard that come close are Vivid Giya G1 Spirits, but they have their own issues that have put me solidly in the planar camp for decades.

However, as always, it's a matter of personal taste and preference.

 

[mr.gregdee]

Try 30 watt the amps on the Apogees. Then try the amps that you are using on the Apogees on the Alsyvox.

All of the Alsyvox models have deep full bodied bass down into the low 20s when driven with medium power tube or SS amps.

Come visit if you are in the US and I will prove it to you.

If you are in Europe and are interested I can recommend a place probably fairly close to you where they can also prove it.

Indeed, I never heard such a sense of presence and projection from any panel speakers fed with such a little power. But then when Daniele said to me that he designed them with the use of 300b amp I am not surprised anymore. The room in Munich wasn't treated to the level to match the sophistication of those speakers IMHO, neither was it easy and helpful room, like majority of them in Atrium. So to me results I witnessed given a conditions were nothing but spectacular. But that just me, flea power amps lover

 

[mr.gregdee]

...

Leaving aside the pricing, I think what happens in most cases is people hear these for the first time, they're not quite prepared for what to expect. Then when they hear about the pricing, negative thoughts set in and that forget it attitude kicks in... Perhaps with the right kind of setup, in the perfect settings with top quality gear, these are superior, most probably.


Woof! RJ

I fully agree with you RJ, especially talking pricewise. Here we have a statement product which delivers outstanding connection to the music. Price is irrelevant, this is not the product for everyone, just like superyachts and private jets. Still Botticelli X are a good car price equivalents ,so they will be chosen by many. R&D and manufacturing products which are designed with cost no object philosophy in order to fulfil designers dream are not cheap by default. : ) my few pennies

 

[mr.gregdee]

Let me copy & paste here a few hot impressions from the AlsyVox room I initially published in the Horizon treat and expand them yet with the further observations, after my repetitive come backs to this room.

What I can say about the sound of AlsyVox/Jadis/Talko/Lampizator/Omega cables ?


First thing which strikes the listener is simply the sound which is heavenly open and simply shocking and it is down to the phenomenal vertical and horizontal projection that those speakers are capable to deliver. That is something which stands out of the crowd of the panel based loudspeakers. Majority of them are fast and giving this special aural sensation which makes people devoted to the planars of many kinds.

What strikes here is their incredible power efficiency. Despite of the use of classic Jadis tube amps with 30 watts only the sound images are mind-blowing and super solid. Of course with sources being top notch , cables well chosen and speakers open like heavens gates there is a perfect match. Amps, as I always say, must be as close to the bare wire, as it's possible. To me idea of getting rid of amplification drawing Kilo-Watts is very appealing and I will be always supporting it. Personally I haven't got any feeling that the performance lacks any solidity in the basement, not at all. Speaking from the experience I often hear SS funs saying things like this as they are tuned to the sound they are leaving with and very often they are a very bass defined people. What they never compare is an accuracy of the timber of the instruments. Saturation of the sound in the midrange. Richness of tone. That sort of balance in sound makes a presence of the bass and the trebles simply different by a different proportions across the entire wideband. It is clear to any musician, but passive listeners as I call them often lack understanding of that as their brain is not automatically looking for the tune, but for the specs that they predefined themselves as a key points. So it may be resolution, it may be depth of the bass reverb, you name it. Therefor it was very interesting experience to hear such a speakers powered with a tube amps and Kudos to Daniele that he designed transducers which are making that possible. Of course we could pump watts and feed them with some ARC Push-Puls, but then it wouldn't be the same. The finesse would be trade of for the rough power and brute dynamic. Call it Martial Arts KATA vs. ballet dancing Each of us will pick up the dynamic and flow which suits his pace and sensitivity most. Just like with other things in life.

I listened to many particular recordings on this system with Daniele's kind allowing me to dj there on my multiple comebacks to the room. Not only I know how they sound on other other gear, but I also had a pleasure to listen to the music in particular places where it was recorded. I know that those venues has very distinguish reverb, like Le Mont St.Michel monastery ( Michel Godard's recordings for Alpha) or Jordi Savall's HesperionXX music recorded live in Maguelone Cathedral for his own AlliaVox lebel. 1st is Gothic church, another is Roman cathedral.

The sounds in each of them are like the two different lives. Full stop. And with Rafaellos and humble Jadis amps ( I used to own in past ) the sense of space had been presented absolutely spectacular. To the level I never experienced with Jadis on other speakers, or othert systems I had a pleasure to listen to and enjoy on my long journey through audio world.

On this system, in this room I heard it all so phenomenally distinguished and obvious like never before in life. This is the best room on the show to me, no doubts. Yet one have to be said to address often asked question: Horizon direct or through the pre?

1st day we listened through the pre, on the second direct. First day it was great, second day it was phenomenal. Jadis pre isn't naturally the best around, but if Horizon volume implementation sends it for cigarettes' it says it all. It takes a heck great pre to beat it.

That doesn't mean that with other preamp, best fitting into the system, the results would be yet reversed , one way or another. Again, regardless the price of the component. With all that observation and my current shift towards hybrid amplification I am dying to hear those speakers with amps like that as my gut feeling is that will match them perfectly. Hopefully, soon I will be able to report more on that matter

 

[Rhapsody]

From EnjoytheMusic.com

Full article here - https://www.enjoythemusic.com/HIGH_END_2022/Andrija/page2.htm

AlsyVox has unveiled its top-of-the-line Rafaello speaker (€276,000) with ribbon planar technology backed by their designer Daniele Coen. Rafaello is a highly efficient speaker (up to 98 dB) and uses a central line source supertweeter in the center, flanked with two midranges and two woofers, with a large external crossover with the best components (Duelund, Jantzen, and Mundorf). The sound was airy, large, and natural, with many layers outlining the depth of the sound stage. Undoubtedly one of the most impressive sound demonstrations at this year's show. In addition to the speakers, the sound source was the Taiko Extreme server and Lampizator Horizon DAC, Jadis Electronics JPL Mk2 preamplifier, JA30 tube power amplifier, and The Element cables and power filters from Omega Audio Concept.

 

[Rhapsody]

From a German Magazine - Alsyvox TOP SOUND- (The full article is in German but Google Translate works if interested)

https://www.avguide.ch/magazin/2_das-comeback-der-mutter-aller-high-end-shows-high-end-muenchen-2022

Translated excerpt -

Manufacturers from Europe formed a fantastic sounding combination.
This exotic, colorful system from the Dutch high-end audio manufacturer Taiko consisted of Taiko digital electronics and accessories, Jadis tube amplifiers (France), the new top tube DAC from Lampizator (Poland) and Alsyvox panel radiators ( Spain). Panel radiators are nothing new on the audio planet, but what is new is that the large-area Alsyvox panel radiators have an efficiency of approx. 97 dB, which is a real sensation for this type of speaker.

The system was operated with a Jadis tube amplifier of 2 x 30 watts. There was always more than enough power there. However, the largest Alsyvox model costs around CHF 400,000, the smallest model is in the region of CHF 80,000 and also has more living room-friendly dimensions. The total value of the entire system was around CHF 800,000.

The sound of the system was very homogeneous and seamless, and also very high-resolution and powerful. Bass response was fast and accurate, and you kind of looked for subwoofers but couldn't find them anywhere. We will be happy to present these exceptional surface heaters to you in more detail at a later date. The company PhP-Audio from Alsace is currently also selling Taiko electronics and Alsyvox loudspeakers in Switzerland.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Now that's certainly more like it! I knew what I had heard here initially wasn't quite right with the EC integrated, although it had a top price tag...
When I had the opportunity to listen at length later in Feb, with the Momentum amps and CJ gear, what a revelation that was! It was totally on a different dimension altogether, and only then did I start to realise its true value.

Like I said, I couldn't fault them (other than the stiff price...) for the materials, workmanship and design are truly top notch! There are no compromises whatsoever. Not too sure about one member commenting that the Alsyvox has a "design flaw"... then again nothing is perfect.

When it comes to perfection, that can only be determined by the user who's doing the actual listening... he/she will really enjoy their music and be fully engaged in it regardless of what level their system is at. They've carefully put together a system that suits their needs, so only they can determine whether it's perfect or not for them!

As far as I'm concerned, I've achieved my dream system at this particular age & point in my life, and most probably will look at downsizing in time to come, that is selling off the monoblocks and settling for a nice tube integrated. I also thought if this was the case, there's no way an integrated tube amp of just 35 - 50w is going to do justice to CLX's or Apogee's for that matter. So then what?

I really wasnt looking forward in settling for horns, although ideal for low powered tube amps. And here we now have these remarkable ribbon transducers from a company I've never heard of... Alsyvox. What a marvellous thing!

I know my trusted mate is all very excited and keen that I fly over there for an audition on the Botichelli-X with upgraded crossovers, driven by CJ's top of the Class A monoblocks, I can only imagine what these would sound like. Well, once I get there I'll be able to make a decision. Until then I look forward to hearing more about this new design, and upcoming reports from audio shows.

Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
WOOF! RJ

 

[Gregadd]

The tonality was ok and bass was good enough for a panel speaker.

IMHO the problem is there was no ATTACK or IMPACT even though volume was high enough. It was more obvious when classical music was played. IMHO I don’t think anything wrong with the amplification, those speakers just don’t have the impact and makes music non-involving like most panel speakers do.

View attachment 93793

Here is hoping they bring that to CAF 2022.

 

[Rhapsody]

Here is hoping they bring that to CAF 2022.

We will NOT be attending CAF. We are attending the NW Audio show in late July and then Axpona next year. Both shows will have Botticelli X with Pilium/Taiko electronics.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

That would certainly be one outstanding show! Nothing like that ever happens here... just had our own Hi Fi show, which started on Friday runs till Sunday. I was meant to go today but unfortunately got caught up with work. I spoke to a few chaps who did attend, pretty decent, nothing significant enough according to their standards, so I can imagine what it was like. At least it was an improvement since covid lockdown, our last one in Melb was around 2018. At least it's a start but it will take an awful long while to get to the real standards of highend. Our market is far too small.

Anyway, I'll look forward to hearing the Botichelli-X in Feb with the CJ Class A ART108A monoblocks. Until then, do enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ

 

[caesar]

Harsh they most certainly were not. In fact I and my associates thought it was overall too smooth and a bit lacking jump, which we think was down to the match with the Jadis amps. Having heard other models with other amps we have heard them sound livelier in previous shows…

They should have used the Jadis 845 amps. Those weigh double than the 30 amp and can drive even some of the nastiest box speakers - and make them sound much more musical and transparent... regardless, they got great press even with the "cheapo" Jadis gear

 

[caesar]

Hi Bob,
What's the difference between the Caravaggio and this new model?

And are the bigger Alsyvox speakers just for a bigger room, or do they sound better than the smaller models?
Thanks in advance

 

[Rhapsody]

They should have used the Jadis 845 amps. Those weigh double than the 30 amp and can drive even some of the nastiest box speakers - and make them sound much more musical and transparent... regardless, they got great press even with the "cheapo" Jadis gear

Not sure how many times I have to say this, I've said I think three or four times. The JA80s were scheduled to be used but something happened logistically and the JA30s were all that was available to use at the last minute. I've heard the JA80s and they light the speaker up with deep low bass and great attack.

Edit- Having said the above I have a few customers that have smaller sized rooms, ie 13' X 17" X 8'. They only listen to vinyl and at 70/75 db levels max. For these customers the JA30s would be all that they need.

Customers in larger rooms that play at higher levels would probably choose more powerful amplification to drive any of the Alsyvox models. It's one of the nifty qualities about the Alsyvox speakers, they can work for a lot of different type of listeners in a lot of different listening environments.

 

[Rhapsody]

Hi Bob,
What's the difference between the Caravaggio and this new model?

And are the bigger Alsyvox speakers just for a bigger room, or do they sound better than the smaller models?
Thanks in advance

The Raffaello has TWO bass panels and TWO midrange transducers. it is also 97db efficient. The Caravaggio is 95db efficient but the single panel Caravaggios only have the one bass and one midrange transducer. Both speakers have one Super Tweeter transducer.

The Raffaello will be able to play a bit louder with large show tunes or soundtracks vs. the one panel Caravaggio, but once you add four or six panel Caravaggio's to the equation then the comparison gets very close. The big difference then is you can get what you get from the 4 or 6 panel Caravaggios in just the two panel Raffaello's which will fit into smaller rooms.

Not sure if Emile will see this thread but if he does he can chime in as he had a LOT to do with the design of the Raffaello's as Emile LOVES big soundtrack and show tunes songs at high volume levels in a large space. You can see/hear the Raffaello's at the new Taiko headquarters being driven with big power.

All of the Alsyvox speakers sound pretty much the same tonally. It mostly has to do with the different sizes working optimally in different size rooms.

Adding the external crossovers, which are available for every Alsyvox model, makes a significant difference sonically as well as provides for adjustability for the bass, midrange/tweeter and ST which allows for tuning for different room environments as well as personal preferential tuning.

 

[morricab]

Not sure how many times I have to say this, I've said I think three or four times. The JA80s were scheduled to be used but something happened logistically and the JA30s were all that was available to use at the last minute. I've heard the JA80s and they light the speaker up with deep low bass and great attack.

Edit- Having said the above I have a few customers that have smaller sized rooms, ie 13' X 17" X 8'. They only listen to vinyl and at 70/75 db levels max. For these customers the JA30s would be all that they need.

Customers in larger rooms that play at higher levels would probably choose more powerful amplification to drive any of the Alsyvox models. It's one of the nifty qualities about the Alsyvox speakers, they can work for a lot of different type of listeners in a lot of different listening environments.

I think his point was a bit different. He was saying that the 20 something watt 845 amp would have more grunt than the JA30s.

 

[bonzo75]

Not sure how many times I have to say this,

Not sure how long you have been on the forum Bob, but you need to open multiple threads on any point and say it over and over and then again