American Sound AS-2000 Installations- Far East (Tango)
- Thread starter ddk
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I think it can be presumed that the designers of these speakers back then and as modified today have the ability to recognize natural sound with their ears.
It is decisions like these that make me reflect on the state of the industry and the performance being delivered.
Tang is still young. To state that these are the final destination is significant.
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Not much at 180m but if there’s any change it shows up in the upper frequencies.
david
Thank you for sharing your experience.
1) I have played with probably every switches of arm mount in all four corners. One arm. Two arms. Three arms. All four arms. Switching cart from one corner to another and another and another. Happens to have 4 identical arms to hear the same cart in all four corners too. But Of course not with intention to see if sound changes as you experienced in from your tt. No sound difference between four arm posts like yours. And no difference when there is only one arm on the table or two or three or four. Ddk would cut his finger to punish himself if such difference occurs on his tt.
2) I have never tried two bolts on an arm clamp of AS2000 because I don't have one with two bolts. So I cannot comment on this.
3) Now that you triggered me to listen when tools are on and off table. It is about time I clean up my room my table. So I will try. But I likely hear no difference. My ears are not so sensitive..unlike normal audiophiles. Practicality is in my dna. I have amps on subs with four 16" woofers I still enjoy my sound very much.
Thank you very much Micro. Let's just say the guy who designed these speakers in the fifties has the same taste in listening music as ddk, Peter, Tima and I. We would like to call it natural sound. Shouldn't we be free to call it anyway we like. Your sound, the one that sounds natural to you or suit your personal preferences, is highly likely different from ours. I don't know what you call your type of sound. You never characterized it never described it. But You certainly can call it natural sound too I dont think any of us would mind or get irritated hearing.
You better believe all of us were born with natural ears.
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@Tango Thanks for sharing so much of your journey. From my view you have been quick to acquire so much experience, and even more importantly to hone in on your priorities. I for one will miss your stories and descriptions now you have reached a summit.
This calls for a survey, who's seeking for a natural vs unnatural sounds. LOL!You certainly can call it natural sound too I dont think any of us would mind or get irritated hearing.
Wonder how many would describe their system unnatural?
Thank you very much Micro. Let's just say the guy who designed these speakers in the fifties has the same taste in listening music as ddk, Peter, Tima and I. We would like to call it natural sound. Shouldn't we be free to call it anyway we like. Your sound, the one that sounds natural to you or suit your personal preferences, is highly likely different from ours. I don't know what you call your type of sound. You never characterized it never described it. But You certainly can call it natural sound too I dont think any of us would mind or get irritated hearing.
You better believe all of us were born with natural ears.
I am happy that you have an open mind - I only dislike when people call the sound that does not fit their preference as "non natural " or "artificial" or use the word ambiguous meaning to support dogmatic claims like "digital is not natural" or "measurements suck" .
I have characterized the type of sound I enjoy in many posts since 2011 - including references to specific recordings people can find in my WBF information page. But surely using the typical stereo language ...
I was pleased about your reference to 1957 . It is a Porto Wine vintage year - if you ever come to my country I will surely offer you a bottle - and my birthyear.
This is an interesting reply. I understand you put some humor behind it.
Consider listening to a live concert then listening to a reproduction of it. I don't think it is helpful to say one is live and the other is dead.
I don't believe there are posts that say those things.
Congratulations to David for having the knowledge, experience and determination to bring these speakers to life! Congratulations to Tang for pursuing this hobby with unlimited passion!
In my Thai audio chat group, 100+ people in the group, I actually never heard a single person say the word "natural" describing sound on their own. They just don't use the word natural to describe great sound they hear. Unbelievable sound. Great great sound. Realistic sound. Epic sound. Heavenly sound, etc. But not once natural sound. Members here are quite similar but not the same extent. If the regulars did not make a big deal out of the term natural sound 90% or more will not use the word natural sound to describe what they hear anyway. They would use those terms used in popular magazine. Or just say gobsmacking, etc to describe their experience. And somehow those people who use the term natural sound I just don't hear them use the word gobsmack describing their experience. My observation is unless you bring up the word natural or unnatural, most audiophiles don't even think about natural or not hearing great attractive sound.
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Tang, do members of your Thai audio chat group
refer to a common reference? I think words like natural, realistic, believable, and convincing, all share a reference. They refer to something very specific, the actual sound of instruments being played. Words like gobsmacking, great great, epic, unbelievable, and heavenly have no reference and in my opinion convey less meaning. What they do share in common is a sense of exuberance and wonder at what is being heard. And that is great. I often think in those terms too, especially when something sounds incredible. The problem is they are not very helpful when writing about how something sounds in an audio forum.
Unfortunately no reference Peter. Good to their ears, however, whatever that is, is what they are after.
That makes a lot of sense now and explains the language they use. Nothing wrong with chasing a sound you love. I now wonder if there is a lot of turnover of gear in your group. You went through that phase, and I refer to your office as a kind of audio laboratory, especially when you had all the different turntables and tonearms and cartridges. You seem to have become settled with eyes laser focused on the target. I suspect your learning will continue though with these new speakers.
They like to compare gears. The focus is on sound difference from one gear to another. So they are very very good at identifying how sound change from one gear to another through videos. And then visit real system. The main objective is to up the system up the dynamic up the clarity up the quietness up the reverb up this up that. Their appreciation seem to be on sound rather than music. Listen to sound not really music. Tweaker from hell. 98% digital. So I have been hearing a lot of Wadax comparisons.
I like comparing gears too Peter. It is fun to explore the new talk of the town. Different sounds through different gears is imo the charm and magnet of this hobby. After going through this fun part of this hobby, I think at one point an audiophile will realize he needs to have a north star to constructing a system and accomplish something. We cannot just change gear not knowing before hand where we stand what our system lack what our system not lacking. Ask the question to ourself a lot if changing a particular gear will take us closer to the north star. The most important part is to find the north star and can describe what north star is like you did Peter. Otherwise it is no system building. It is just gear play.
Forgive me Peter, I am posting in your thread about natural sound and I have not heard your’s or ddk’s systems, so your ‘natural’ and my own understanding may be different (or, there is the possibility I’d hear yours and go “oh, yeah - that!”)
I had a visitor come to hear Diesis “Roma” recently. After he left I spent a good while just listening and enjoying. So I sent a little note to Giuseppe @ Diesis:
I understand French thinking, I have a family part living in Paris.
In Italy it has the same meaning,
saying : There is something that strikes us most without understanding what…
But the receptors in our brain have infallible qualities to make us capture an emotion even if hidden.
In the notes of the guarantee certificate we wrote these words:
(You will never stop falling in love with them) this is what happens to us even today, each interface will produce a different result but always with the Character we have impressed, Both with small tube amps and with large Solid State Amplifire the concreteness and focusing of the stage will always be granitic.
You have turned on a fuse inside our passion, we also need these feedback to continue our passion.
Thanks again, Bob
(Keep in mind Giuseppe speaks no english, so our correspondence is typically filtered through Google Translate.)
So we both (myself and Giuseppe) recognize this something special and unique, but we’re not using your term. Konstantinos from Pilium did say he designs with a goal of creating a ‘natural’ sounding amp. Tim and Tang had not previously used the term (much?) in their postings (that I have read).
Is it possible this ‘natural‘ sound is floating around out there in a good many instances? When you hear a another system now, does your ability to enjoy the music suffer if at first your ‘natural sound’ filter is unchecked?
I had a visitor come to hear Diesis “Roma” recently. After he left I spent a good while just listening and enjoying. So I sent a little note to Giuseppe @ Diesis:
Giuseppe’s response I thought worth sharing:
I understand French thinking, I have a family part living in Paris.
In Italy it has the same meaning,
saying : There is something that strikes us most without understanding what…
But the receptors in our brain have infallible qualities to make us capture an emotion even if hidden.
In the notes of the guarantee certificate we wrote these words:
(You will never stop falling in love with them) this is what happens to us even today, each interface will produce a different result but always with the Character we have impressed, Both with small tube amps and with large Solid State Amplifire the concreteness and focusing of the stage will always be granitic.
You have turned on a fuse inside our passion, we also need these feedback to continue our passion.
Thanks again, Bob
(Keep in mind Giuseppe speaks no english, so our correspondence is typically filtered through Google Translate.)
So we both (myself and Giuseppe) recognize this something special and unique, but we’re not using your term. Konstantinos from Pilium did say he designs with a goal of creating a ‘natural’ sounding amp. Tim and Tang had not previously used the term (much?) in their postings (that I have read).
Is it possible this ‘natural‘ sound is floating around out there in a good many instances? When you hear a another system now, does your ability to enjoy the music suffer if at first your ‘natural sound’ filter is unchecked?
May I join in to answer this question Bob. I listened to the most expensive system with Living Voice, double Kondo 300b but instead use the unobtainium 300A, AS2000 with Neumann DST. The sound was not accurate to what I would call natural sound but this system sound utterly pleasant. 100 out of 100 would enjoy the sound me included. So really there was not any suffering but full of enjoyment. Still I prefer my system which imo sounds more accurate and natural.
Tang, a great post… your comments about system building have been said before but surely are worth hearing again for many. I know I have, over the course of my time in this hobby going back many years, listened for “more” and “better” sound (sometimes even less, perhaps noise or haze or glare, etc) but not towards a final goal. Perhaps because I don’t care that much for classical music, or because so often even when I hear a small jazz ensemble some instrument is amplified I don’t have this “live, unamplified” baseline reference. But my brother was a luthier, so I’ve heard guitars and mandolins played in front of me across the kitchen table — even then I can’t say I’d been keen to hear differences in timbre my brother could hear knocking a raw board with his knuckle and saying it would make a good top or back for a guitar.
Maybe some are like me, we know great sound when we hear it but don’t have the refined hearing as a chef or oenophile has a discerning palate.
There are many ways of creating our north star in this hobby. And IMHO gear playing can move its position in the sky - and, most of it, the stars are driven by the music you listen. Otherwise we risk that the north star guides our music.
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