Analog vs Lampizator

[Audiophile Bill]

Interesting you mention the Oistrakh - about a decade ago I was at the home of a serious vinyl collector, as part of a group listen, and one of those recordings was a highlight of the listening. Trouble was, the material earlier ranged from downright unpleasantly distorted, to mediocre; and later recordings were just OK, or a bit bland. I also heard his gear pulled together for a demo at a meeting, and the quality was pretty dreadful ...

IOW, analogue can be all over the place - I wouldn't be able to tolerate the huge swings in the presentation that seem to be part and parcel of this medium.

Hi,

I don't have quite the huge swings in quality but that might be because of my collection I am not sure. However, when you get the special ones out, by God they blow you away. I do think it was also based on how these "special" recordings were done - half speed analogue tape with all those beautiful valve Neumann mics and so much time and love invested to make something really epic.

 

[Audiocrack]

Thanks for the heads up Rudolph. I don't know them but will check them out. What is a great album that will get me into their sound?

I would start with his (that is Bert van der Wolf's) latest addition to the Prokofiev symphonies circle. See for other good recordings the thread that I started on WBF regarding Challenge Classics and www.spiritofturtle.com

Also his Bach Mattheus Passion is gorgeous(ly) (recorded).

 

[thedudeabides]

At the end: a thinly disguised "Analog is better" thread ... Carry on gentlemen!

Seems to be the case, again. Oh well.

 

[sleepfox]

IMHO, it is a misunderstanding to say that people love valve and analog for (pleasant) distortions. If any one ever build a valve gear himself, he will find that methods are tried to suppress the noise in PS and filament heating, to get noisy components out of signal path, and to find the best operation points where tubes work their best linearity. DHT are usually prefered to IDHT, not because of distortions, but because of better linearity.

They surely have some shortcomings, but those are not the elements that make them sound great; but instead are shortcomings that we sometimes are willing to accept, for the great and natural sound they re-produce. (talking about trade-offs)

I read Lukasz's old blog about how his 300B DAC was designed quite some time ago. If I remember correctly, he purposed applied a low plate volt and starved the filament to achieve better linearity. This is actually is not unusual among tube DAC/linestage design. By the way, this has been why Elrog has issues with Lampi, it has super delicate filament and probably cann't survive under such usage, though this may actually be very easy to other tubes and sustain their life.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I would start with his (that is Bert van der Wolf's) latest addition to the Prokofiev symphonies circle. See for other good recordings the thread that I started on WBF regarding Challenge Classics and www.spiritofturtle.com

Also his Bach Mattheus Passion is gorgeous(ly) (recorded).

Thanks Rudolph. I will look up the website this evening and see what there is. Not really in mood for Prokofiev at the mo or the St Matthew's so will see what else looks good.

 

[bonzo75]

IMHO, it is a misunderstanding to say that people love valve and analog for (pleasant) distortions. If any one ever build a valve gear himself, he will find that methods are tried to suppress the noise in PS and filament heating, to get noisy components out of signal path, and to find the best operation points where tubes work their best linearity. DHT are usually prefered to IDHT, not because of distortions, but because of better linearity.

They surely have some shortcomings, but those are not the elements that make them sound great; but instead are shortcomings that we sometimes are willing to accept, for the great and natural sound they re-produce. (talking about trade-offs)

I read Lukasz's old blog about how his 300B DAC was designed quite some time ago. If I remember correctly, he purposed applied a low plate volt and starved the filament to achieve better linearity. This is actually is not unusual among tube DAC/linestage design. By the way, this has been why Elrog has issues with Lampi, it has super delicate filament and probably cann't survive under such usage, though this may actually be very easy to other tubes and sustain their life.

His old blog was for level 2, before he went commercial. Not sure if t still applies

 

[murphys33]

I tried a Regen but I didn' t like what it did in my setup. For my ears the sound switched to the clinical and less involving side but I am a " half - analog guy"

We probably may agree that W20-GG/B7 is one of best digital combo available.

Yeah it's a bit of trade off ... without regen and intona the presentation was more laidback. With it it has more bite. I like to hear my trumpet with that bite as it sounds more real to me. But when I need to wind down after a hard day's work a more laid back presentation would suit my moods better.

 

[sleepfox]

His old blog was for level 2, before he went commercial. Not sure if t still applies

The plate volt is still about 200V. This very reasonable considering that there will not be much voltage swing and 200V should be more than enough in linestage/DAC. I am sure that the filament heater has been updated to accommodate many DHTs.

 

[Geardaddy]

In terms of my few quad files versus best of vinyl - the quad easily wins in terms of extracting amazing resolution - just hearing more of everything laid bare. The vinyl still wins head to head in terms of instrumental timbre. Just playing any of my Decca Oistrakh violin concertos reminds me of that gap. The vinyl also has an uncanny ability to convey vitality - just that presence of someone being there playing that instrument.

I think that is a key description of why vinyl (with proper rig and source material) still has an edge: timbre/texture, and vitality (aka presence). I owned the GG and its fabulous, but whenever I came across SOTA vinyl rigs, it made me curse under my breath. Its possible that the gap can closed further with better software (HQplayer) and streamers, power conditioning, grounding (electrical and mechanical), etc, etc....

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I think that is a key description of why vinyl (with proper rig and source material) still has an edge: timbre/texture, and vitality (aka presence). I owned the GG and its fabulous, but whenever I came across SOTA vinyl rigs, it made me curse under my breath. Its possible that the gap can closed further with better software (HQplayer) and streamers, power conditioning, grounding (electrical and mechanical), etc, etc....

Hi Daddy,

What digital did you replace your GG with out of interest? Cheers.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I think that is a key description of why vinyl (with proper rig and source material) still has an edge: timbre/texture, and vitality (aka presence). I owned the GG and its fabulous, but whenever I came across SOTA vinyl rigs, it made me curse under my breath. Its possible that the gap can closed further with better software (HQplayer) and streamers, power conditioning, grounding (electrical and mechanical), etc, etc....

no. the gap will never close because (1) at the bleeding edge vinyl is getting better too (as each small aspect of vinyl playback gets continually improved), and (2) more information is presented in a more direct (if imperfect) way. when I go from native Quad on the GG (astonishingly great digital) to vinyl it's still one of those 'whoa' moments with profound fundamentally important differences. native Quad has the ease, decay and low noise floor close to vinyl......but.....the musical density, micro-dynamic energy, timbre and texture is lacking. great digital can 'fill' the room with energy. but not to how vinyl/tape energizes each molecule. real? artifacts? who knows or cares. it's still a 'whoa' difference.

but fabulous/astonishing digital through the GG is still pretty damn good.

 

[khonfused]

Mike,
I'm not having a lot of experience with SOTA vinyl rigs, so I am interested to learn, what are those small aspects that can still be improved in analog playback?
There are a lot of aspects that need improving in the digital realm, that's for sure. Lampizator just shows how much more there is possible.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,
I'm not having a lot of experience with SOTA vinyl rigs, so I am interested to learn, what are those small aspects that can still be improved in analog playback?
There are a lot of aspects that need improving in the digital realm, that's for sure. Lampizator just shows how much more there is possible.

you ask 'what are those small aspects' of vinyl that still can be improved?

how much time do you have?

the short answer is that vinyl playback is a mechanical/physical process. and like anything mechanical as material science and engineering gets better and better all those advancements get applied to the vinyl playback challenges. and the fact is that there is an increasing amount of resources devoted to this pursuit as time goes by. compared to 10 or 5 or even 2 years ago more energy is being focused to improve vinyl playback. and so far they keep finding more and more musical truth in those grooves. while no doubt we are in a realm of diminishing returns at the bleeding edge those returns continue to be delivered at a pretty impressive rate to those paying close attention.

if you observe what it takes to play a record, and observe all the various approaches to get that done, you can see how many different ways things can and are being done. yes; on it's surface it seems basic; you have a record with music cut into grooves.......you spin the record at the right speed, the arm pivots or tracks, the needle reads the groove. the signal goes to the phono stage and it gets amplified to line level.

every tiny aspect of the mastering/pressing/ spinning/ tracking/reading/amplifying can be improved and improved and improved. we could address any one of those steps and never stop investigating where we might go.

will material science or engineering ever stop evolving? no. so why won't vinyl playback continue to improve with it?

 

[Geardaddy]

Hi Daddy,

What digital did you replace your GG with out of interest? Cheers.

Hi Bill. I went through a major system change motivated more by lifestyle (aka small beasts at large.....) than sonics. I am now tubeless. My previous speakers, Lampizator, and Viva Solista are all gone. I have gone with an all SS system (Phison PD2 and A2.120 amp are on order....) and speakers from Trenner & Friedl. I have the Pharaohs in a living room system and am deciding on the Arts versus Ras for my "dedicated" room. The simple act of removing my fiddly, OCD stuff and yanking equipment into my living room has been a revelation for the whole family.

 

[Geardaddy]

no. the gap will never close because (1) at the bleeding edge vinyl is getting better too (as each small aspect of vinyl playback gets continually improved), and (2) more information is presented in a more direct (if imperfect) way. when I go from native Quad on the GG (astonishingly great digital) to vinyl it's still one of those 'whoa' moments with profound fundamentally important differences. native Quad has the ease, decay and low noise floor close to vinyl......but.....the musical density, micro-dynamic energy, timbre and texture is lacking. great digital can 'fill' the room with energy. but not to how vinyl/tape energizes each molecule. real? artifacts? who knows or cares. it's still a 'whoa' difference.

but fabulous/astonishing digital through the GG is still pretty damn good.

Tell me it ain't so! Density is another good word to use.

Thanks to Bob Clark, the US distro for Trenner, I am eyeballing the Palmer table (out of the UK) when the beasts are a little older....and the dust has settled....

 

[khonfused]

how much time do you have?

I do have a lot of time, that's why I'm here...:b

In all seriousness, I wasn't aware that the vinyl technology in all of their aspects is still improving. Being around for that long I would have thought there are no more essential secrets to discover.
Digital otoh is rather new and I am expecting many more insights on how to make it sound better.

 

[PeterA]

you ask 'what are those small aspects' of vinyl that still can be improved?

how much time do you have?

the short answer is that vinyl playback is a mechanical/physical process. and like anything mechanical as material science and engineering gets better and better all those advancements get applied to the vinyl playback challenges. and the fact is that there is an increasing amount of resources devoted to this pursuit as time goes by. compared to 10 or 5 or even 2 years ago more energy is being focused to improve vinyl playback. and so far they keep finding more and more musical truth in those grooves. while no doubt we are in a realm of diminishing returns at the bleeding edge those returns continue to be delivered at a pretty impressive rate to those paying close attention.

if you observe what it takes to play a record, and observe all the various approaches to get that done, you can see how many different ways things can and are being done. yes; on it's surface it seems basic; you have a record with music cut into grooves.......you spin the record at the right speed, the arm pivots or tracks, the needle reads the groove. the signal goes to the phono stage and it gets amplified to line level.

every tiny aspect of the mastering/pressing/ spinning/ tracking/reading/amplifying can be improved and improved and improved. we could address any one of those steps and never stop investigating where we might go.

will material science or engineering ever stop evolving? no. so why won't vinyl playback continue to improve with it?

I like your optimism, Mike, and trust that you are right. I agree that improvements will continue. I just hope they are significant enough and affordable enough to spread down to more accessible levels. I would add that resonance control - in cartridges, tonearms, platters, plinths - is another area for significant improvement. Isolation from the environment is yet another.

My daughter just bought me a copy of Lorde's LP. She knows I only listen to vinyl and that I like some of the songs when they hit the radio on the morning drive to school, so she went on the net and bought the record for me. She gave it to me with the pancakes she made for breakfast. Life is great on so many levels.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I like your optimism, Mike, and trust that you are right. I agree that improvements will continue. I just hope they are significant enough and affordable enough to spread down to more accessible levels. I would add that resonance control - in cartridges, tonearms, platters, plinths - is another area for significant improvement. Isolation from the environment is yet another.

My daughter just bought me a copy of Lorde's LP. She knows I only listen to vinyl and that I like some of the songs when they hit the radio on the morning drive to school, so she went on the net and bought the record for me. She gave it to me with the pancakes she made for breakfast. Life is great on so many levels.

you have a great daughter! very cool she knows your music and the vinyl to buy.

life is great!

 

[fas42]

native Quad has the ease, decay and low noise floor close to vinyl......but.....the musical density, micro-dynamic energy, timbre and texture is lacking. great digital can 'fill' the room with energy. but not to how vinyl/tape energizes each molecule. real? artifacts? who knows or cares. it's still a 'whoa' difference.

but fabulous/astonishing digital through the GG is still pretty damn good.

Mike, I understand precisely what you're saying here ... but I chase the same subjective experience using digital only. Yes, I have heard how top notch vinyl can achieve that - but my angle is that I think, "Good! They've got competent playback happening there ... "

It's 'harder' for digital, because the issues are totally different - all that "musical density, micro-dynamic energy, etc" is all there, in the music as recorded, on the medium; but it gets killed most of the time in the playback processing.

On some particular day, when everything is alignment, it will fully snap into place for a listener, using digital, and they will realise that there are no limits there, either ...

 

[Geardaddy]

Mike, I understand precisely what you're saying here ... but I chase the same subjective experience using digital only. Yes, I have heard how top notch vinyl can achieve that - but my angle is that I think, "Good! They've got competent playback happening there ... "

It's 'harder' for digital, because the issues are totally different - all that "musical density, micro-dynamic energy, etc" is all there, in the music as recorded, on the medium; but it gets killed most of the time in the playback processing.

On some particular day, when everything is alignment, it will fully snap into place for a listener, using digital, and they will realise that there are no limits there, either ...

Frank, that is most likely true as well. What are the key variables for you in digital audio that allow one to "conjure" the pulp and life and breath of music?