Analog vs Lampizator

[fas42]

Frank, that is most likely true as well. What are the key variables for you in digital audio that allow one to "conjure" the pulp and life and breath of music?

Minimising electrical interference. This knocks the stuffing out of the subjective quality, whereas in vinyl so much has to be done to tame mechanical issues - very different priorities.

The minimising is all about stopping electrical "noise" from getting tangled in the works, from any source. So, super clean electrical mains power, to everything - experiment, experiment with various types of filtering to all the components, see which gives the cleanest sound. IME cell and mobile, cordless phones are a problem - unless every area of the system is effectively fully screened then the sound may degrade - a standard test I do is to switch off every wireless device in the house, listen for a bit and then switch one of them back on again - do I hear a loss of life and sparkle at that moment?

The last biggy is internally generated noise: do poor power supplies inside the boxes cause problems, are the cables badly routed or free to rattle within, possibly causing static to be generated. Are there poor quality connectors used, and the slight misbehaviour from the contacts not being ideal causing issues?

From experience, I now go through a full process of checking off all these items, trying to eliminate every last possible "weakness". As I do so the sound, from digital, steadily builds in perceived quality, loses grunge and flatness - if I get enough cleaned up then the sound emerges in full glory, becomes a marvellous experience ... simply by getting it as "electrically pure" as possible.

 

[murphys33]

Yeah it's a bit of trade off ... without regen and intona the presentation was more laidback. With it it has more bite. I like to hear my trumpet with that bite as it sounds more real to me. But when I need to wind down after a hard day's work a more laid back presentation would suit my moods better.

Maslo,
Try the w20 without the usb power connected to GG via regen?

 

[Geardaddy]

Minimising electrical interference. This knocks the stuffing out of the subjective quality, whereas in vinyl so much has to be done to tame mechanical issues - very different priorities.

The minimising is all about stopping electrical "noise" from getting tangled in the works, from any source. So, super clean electrical mains power, to everything - experiment, experiment with various types of filtering to all the components, see which gives the cleanest sound. IME cell and mobile, cordless phones are a problem - unless every area of the system is effectively fully screened then the sound may degrade - a standard test I do is to switch off every wireless device in the house, listen for a bit and then switch one of them back on again - do I hear a loss of life and sparkle at that moment?

The last biggy is internally generated noise: do poor power supplies inside the boxes cause problems, are the cables badly routed or free to rattle within, possibly causing static to be generated. Are there poor quality connectors used, and the slight misbehaviour from the contacts not being ideal causing issues?

From experience, I now go through a full process of checking off all these items, trying to eliminate every last possible "weakness". As I do so the sound, from digital, steadily builds in perceived quality, loses grunge and flatness - if I get enough cleaned up then the sound emerges in full glory, becomes a marvellous experience ... simply by getting it as "electrically pure" as possible.

Agree 100%. Minimizing RFI/EMI seems to be part of the secret sauce for digital. What do you employ along these lines?

 

[Al M.]

Agree 100%. Minimizing RFI/EMI seems to be part of the secret sauce for digital. What do you employ along these lines?

+ 1

It is remarkable how the resolution of my DAC degrades being fed straight from the wall, without power conditioner (Tice Power Block II, old but trusted).

 

[fas42]

It is remarkable how the resolution of my DAC degrades being fed straight from the wall, without power conditioner (Tice Power Block II, old but trusted).

Not so much remarkable, but an indication of how critical it is to get the engineering of the DAC right, so that it is not affected by what comes down the mains. And conversely minimising noise that is generated by the DAC's operation being fed back via the power cord to other components in the system; power conditioners would always have bidirectional filtering actions.

As regards what I use, I wish I could say, just do A, B and C. Unfortunately, this is a journey for me which is still in progress - by nature I'm an experimenter, I don't acquire, purchase various commercial units or add-on bits which just "do the job". Over the years I have tried various ideas that others have suggested for filtering, and designed one or two DIY units - in each situation I keep experimenting with a particular idea or ideas until I get reasonable or even satisfying results; in one sense I'm always trying to prove a point to myself, which is that adequate filtering is a big part of the story for achieving competent sound.

I look at each setup I fiddle with as a process of refinement, and what I do with each is completely different, I'm exploring how much is needed to be done with that combination of components to get sound that I'm happy with.

My latest project is based on decent NAD boxes, and I've documented most of the details on my blog, starting at http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com.au/2015/10/a-more-ambitious-upgrade-part-1.html. Amusingly, I haven't applied more than a bare minimum of conventional RFI/EMI attenuation techniques so far, a single Jon Risch style filter is the main separate element on that side of things, at the moment.

 

[morricab]

Sorry I can't agree that most analog setups get their "analog" sound from tube phono preamps. The sound of "analog" does not mandate tube electronics.

It has been experience that the phono stage is the most important part of an analog rig, hands down. Whether tube or transistor.

Btw, tubes can have just as low distortion as transistors at line level signals. Transistors flavor the sound just as much but in different ways to tubes. It is just a lot harder to roll transistors.

You can make a SOTA vinyl rig sound quite poor with an unfortunate choice in phono preamp. I have heard this sadly many times.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

It has been experience that the phono stage is the most important part of an analog rig, hands down. Whether tube or transistor.

Btw, tubes can have just as low distortion as transistors at line level signals. Transistors flavor the sound just as much but in different ways to tubes. It is just a lot harder to roll transistors.

You can make a SOTA vinyl rig sound quite poor with an unfortunate choice in phono preamp. I have heard this sadly many times.

Hi,

You have misunderstood my point. At no point am I saying that phono stages are not critical in the sonic signature of a good vinyl rig - they most definitely are! The point being made is that TUBE electronics are not required to have an "analog" sounding rig. I also am aware that tubes have low distortion. You can have an analog sounding rig with a ss phono stage.

 

[morricab]

Hi,

You have misunderstood my point. At no point am I saying that phono stages are not critical in the sonic signature of a good vinyl rig - they most definitely are! The point being made is that TUBE electronics are not required to have an "analog" sounding rig. I also am aware that tubes have low distortion. You can have an analog sounding rig with a ss phono stage.

My point was that a poor phono stage can make vinyl almost sound digital because the electronic distortions all come from the phono stage and these are the most destructive for sonic realism. This is why an average TT with a superior phono stage will win over a great TT and mediocre phono stage nearly every time.

I have heard many TT setups that actually sounded more like average digital and it was almost always the electronics at the end to blame.

 

[bonzo75]

My point was that a poor phono stage can make vinyl almost sound digital because the electronic distortions all come from the phono stage and these are the most destructive for sonic realism. This is why an average TT with a superior phono stage will win over a great TT and mediocre phono stage nearly every time.

I have heard many TT setups that actually sounded more like average digital and it was almost always the electronics at the end to blame.

Brad, Bill was replying to Sb06's post below with his original tube phono comment:

Analogous to an analog setup with a SS phono pre. Many (most?) analog setups get their "analog" sound with tube phono preamps IME. Try it with a SS and not so bloomy, analogy - like, etc...

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Brad, Bill was replying to Sb06's post below with his original tube phono comment:

Thanks for translating Ked

 

[morricab]

Brad, Bill was replying to Sb06's post below with his original tube phono comment:

Yes, I got that. I was sort of expanding the discussion further say that in fact the times I have heard an analog rig sound "digital" or "electronic" it was using a SS phono stage. I have never heard a tube one that made analog sound other than analog. So, I would say that Sb06 was not completely right but he was also not completely wrong...

 

[sbo6]

Yes, I got that. I was sort of expanding the discussion further say that in fact the times I have heard an analog rig sound "digital" or "electronic" it was using a SS phono stage. I have never heard a tube one that made analog sound other than analog. So, I would say that Sb06 was not completely right but he was also not completely wrong...

You articulated it better than I did, thanks. My point is - IME a large % of the "analog goodness" comes from a tube phono preamp. I've heard very few with that liquidy (artificial?) realness with SS phono pres. I've never heard a Lampizator DAC but I'd bet much of the analog - like quality I read about is due to tubes in the signal path (kind of like a phono pre).

 

[Audiophile Bill]

You articulated it better than I did, thanks. My point is - IME a large % of the "analog goodness" comes from a tube phono preamp. I've heard very few with that liquidy (artificial?) realness with SS phono pres. I've never heard a Lampizator DAC but I'd bet much of the analog - like quality I read about is due to tubes in the signal path (kind of like a phono pre).

Hi,

You need to listen to some great ss phono stages then. Plenty on here with them such as Mike L with the Dartzeel, MadFloyd with the Pass Labs, and Marty with the ASR as a start.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Yes, I got that. I was sort of expanding the discussion further say that in fact the times I have heard an analog rig sound "digital" or "electronic" it was using a SS phono stage. I have never heard a tube one that made analog sound other than analog. So, I would say that Sb06 was not completely right but he was also not completely wrong...

I think this new point is true.

That being said, sounding "analogy" is not the desideratum for most people - it is great sound that most are after and that can be attained with either ss or tube. The problem with the argument as put is that it accidentally falsely discriminates against great analog sound being achievable with ss phonos. As you will see in my reply to sbo6, 3 systems that are particularly notorious for sounding wonderful on this forum employ ss phono stages.

 

[sbo6]

Thanks, I may get a chance if I go to RMAF this year.

 

[PeterA]

Hi,

You need to listen to some great ss phono stages then. Plenty on here with them such as Mike L with the Dartzeel, MadFloyd with the Pass Labs, and Marty with the ASR as a start.

Completely agree. For me, a big part of listening to LPs (analog) is a natural sound, extreme resolution with the best recordings and information retrieval from the grooves. That requires low distortion and lack of noise, and proper gain. MadFloyd's Pass phono is superb in these areas and I have directly compared it to quad DSD through HQPlayer and NADAC. His analog seems to have more resolution, more accurate timbre, and sounds just as low in distortion and noise as the best digital that I have heard. Yet it does not sound at all like digital. It sounds like great analog, that is, very natural and reminiscent of live music.

I don't think "analog" sound has anything to do with whether or not a phono stage is SS or tube. It has everything to do with proper design and execution of the phono stage as well as the rest of the analog chain.

 

[Audiocrack]

Hi,

You need to listen to some great ss phono stages then. Plenty on here with them such as Mike L with the Dartzeel, MadFloyd with the Pass Labs, and Marty with the ASR as a start.

I have been a tube man all my audio life but still love my solid state Lyra Connoisseur 4.2 phonostage in combination with the Lyra olympos cartridge. So yes, very good ss phonostages can (indeed) be found.

 

[Jazzhead]

Along the lines of a Lampi , any one heard this ? https://veracityaudio.com/products/...-with-bubinga-front-panel-and-matching-remote

 

[fas42]

I don't think "analog" sound has anything to do with whether or not a phono stage is SS or tube. It has everything to do with proper design and execution of the phono stage as well as the rest of the analog chain.

Yes, very much so. At a recent audio show a Lampizator setup was sounding "analogue" - meaning, without disturbing distortion artifacts in the sound - when used in the normal fashion, driven by a laptop music server. When the source was switched to an Oppo unit, purely used as transport, classic "digital" unpleasantness was very obvious - everything matters ...

 

[Geardaddy]

Yes, very much so. At a recent audio show a Lampizator setup was sounding "analogue" - meaning, without disturbing distortion artifacts in the sound - when used in the normal fashion, driven by a laptop music server. When the source was switched to an Oppo unit, purely used as transport, classic "digital" unpleasantness was very obvious - everything matters ...

+1

As good as my Lampizator was, you could still tarnish the sound with a garbage transport. Frank, have you ever fiddled with a flash player such as this: http://www.lessloss.com/laminar-streamer-sd-player-p-207.html