Are SOTA systems worth the effort?

[bonzo75]

JC Morrison was quite clear while chatting to him in Munich, that if one wanted to comepet with the billionaires (his customers like Cheung etc on the WE silbatone front), the only way was to DIY.

People could get a top 20 system simply by replicating a good horn design with average drivers. Optimizing them would get them into top 10. You don't need to know any DIY, just get someone who knows to do it for you who is not baking commercial, distribution, and marketing margins into his price

Yes 99% of them would get it all wrong but that would also be the case when they spend very expensive on high end gear. At least in this case they would lose less money in the attempt.

Otherwise, just get a devore, vintage tannoy, or Martin Logan hybrids and you will beat 90% of the systems. With horns Universum or Anima and trios, 95. The next 4 percent will have a bit of serendipity and be blessed with a room. And the final 1 will be extreme individuals who one day will wish that OCD was directed to crypto.

 

[morricab]

Martin Colloms told me many years ago that it was possible to design a two way crossover in a few days, that a 3 way was much more difficult taking perhaps six months, and that 4 ways were almost impossible to get right.

I have been working on my own build 3 way for the past 14 months, I am close to getting the sound I want, but not quite.

I used to run 4 way Alon Phalanxs, which were considered a SOTA contender in their day and I spent a year upgrading and fine tuning the crossovers to try and get the sound I wanted. I would never try another 4 way!

When I look at commercial SOTA speakers that are 4+ way multi driver speakers, I have to wonder about how the designer has brought that together into a coherent whole, and then also how the user is able to keep that coherency it in their room.

I believe that coherence is essential for a speaker to give long term enjoyment, otherwise what you get is more detail that can be initially impressive but does not give long term satisfaction.

I think he underestimated the time to optimize the two-way! All my systems currently are two-way because I have to have coherence and it is, as you rightly said, nearly impossible to achieve in multi-way systems. Before moving completely to horns, I was into huge full range electrostats that were essentially single driver.

 

[Al M.]

JC Morrison was quite clear while chatting to him in Munich, that if one wanted to comepet with the billionaires (his customers like Cheung etc on the WE silbatone front), the only way was to DIY.

People could get a top 20 system simply by replicating a good horn design with average drivers. Optimizing them would get them into top 10. You don't need to know any DIY, just get someone who knows to do it for you who is not baking commercial, distribution, and marketing margins into his price

Yes 99% of them would get it all wrong but that would also be the case when they spend very expensive on high end gear. At least in this case they would lose less money in the attempt.

Otherwise, just get a devore, vintage tannoy, or Martin Logan hybrids and you will beat 90% of the systems. With horns Universum or Anima and trios, 95. The next 4 percent will have a bit of serendipity and be blessed with a room. And the final 1 will be extreme individuals who one day will wish that OCD was directed to crypto.

The videos of horn systems that you post don't make a convincing argument for your case.

 

[bonzo75]

The videos of horn systems that you post don't make a convincing argument for your case.

you are not the target nor am I trying to convince you .

 

[Al M.]

you are not the target nor am I trying to convince you .

I thought everyone was your target for horn sound.

 

[bonzo75]

I thought everyone was your target for horn sound.

Only those who want to learn

 

[LL21]

Someday, when time allows, I will try to listen to some of these all-out assault vintage horn and new horn systems. The ones that come to mind:

- Avantgarde - Trios
- Living Voice - Olympians
- Custom-built ones you keep talking about Bonzo75 (horns with FLH bass towers)
- Aries Cerat - Contendo Reference
- Oswald Mills - butterfly horn speakers made in upstate NY
- Viva - Masterhorn

- Bionor's - DDK's mighty bionors for example

I have only ever heard Audio Exotics Cessaro Betas with Cessaro Horn Subs, a pair of Cessaro Liszt in UK, a pair of Zanden driven pair of horns in Netherlands and a few others here and there. Nothing has ever inspired me to go back for more, and to be fair, my sense of horns is that system integration and set up are (as ever) exceedingly important to get it just right.

 

[Al M.]

Only those who want to learn

Haha, well I can't learn much from your crappy sounding system videos, for sure. I do plan to make a New England horn tour with friends at some point.

 

[LL21]

Are SOTA systems worth the effort?​

Sure but its the overall package that does the trick , making the right choices regarding room etc its what the owner / user makes of it
I like to pick low cost / very good value components and i never read magazines ,i just go by my own ears .
Its your hobby in the end .
If its not worth it , dont spend it .

Agree. A pile of expensive purchases does not a true SOTA system make. There is a reason why people call them systems. They are in fact systems, and the system is literally everything including the room...and often these systems are custom-tailored to the 'operator' of the system.

 

[LL21]

Someday, when time allows, I will try to listen to some of these all-out assault vintage horn and new horn systems. The ones that come to mind:

- Avantgarde - Trios
- Living Voice - Olympians
- Custom-built ones you keep talking about Bonzo75 (horns with FLH bass towers)
- Aries Cerat - Contendo Reference
- Oswald Mills - butterfly horn speakers made in upstate NY
- Viva - Masterhorn

- Bionor's - DDK's mighty bionors for example

I have only ever heard Audio Exotics Cessaro Betas with Cessaro Horn Subs, a pair of Cessaro Liszt in UK, a pair of Zanden driven pair of horns in Netherlands and a few others here and there. Nothing has ever inspired me to go back for more, and to be fair, my sense of horns is that system integration and set up are (as ever) exceedingly important to get it just right.

Actually, I did manage to hear 'a version' of the Living Voice speakers which are at #Spiritland - Kings Cross. Bonzo75 - have you heard them? Has anyone heard this particular system and also the main Living Voice Olympian or Elysian systems? Curious as to people's impressions as to how close the Kings Cross set up gets to the main Living Voice reference setups.

 

[dcc]

Actually, I did manage to hear 'a version' of the Living Voice speakers which are at #Spiritland - Kings Cross. Bonzo75 - have you heard them? Has anyone heard this particular system and also the main Living Voice Olympian or Elysian systems? Curious as to people's impressions as to how close the Kings Cross set up gets to the main Living Voice reference setups.

I did listen to them at Spiritland (that was pre-Covid) and I was not impressed to say the least.

 

[bonzo75]

Actually, I did manage to hear 'a version' of the Living Voice speakers which are at #Spiritland - Kings Cross. Bonzo75 - have you heard them? Has anyone heard this particular system and also the main Living Voice Olympian or Elysian systems? Curious as to people's impressions as to how close the Kings Cross set up gets to the main Living Voice reference setups.

Those were pretty poor sounding at King's cross, some sort of unoptimized old version.

There is the coffee shop opposite that sells the 15 quid coffee.

At kings cross there are a couple of excellent restaurants, one is plum and spilt milk, and the other is in coal drops yard, called Coal Office, and is a sister restaurant of Palomar and Barbary

 

[LL21]

Thanks. I listened to them and found them grainy...better than your average bar system but not pure in the way I was expecting. That said, has anyone heard the Living Voice systems setup by Definitive?

 

[morricab]

Thanks. I listened to them and found them grainy...better than your average bar system but not pure in the way I was expecting. That said, has anyone heard the Living Voice systems setup by Definitive?

Yes at Munich...sublime sound...one of the very best I ever heard...and probably the most natural and giving you the feeling of being in a live concert.

 

[LL21]

Yes at Munich...sublime sound...one of the very best I ever heard...and probably the most natural and giving you the feeling of being in a live concert.

Thanks, Morricab...yes, I remember your comments and Roy Gregory's about those.

- Have you heard the ones at Spiritland in London?

The reason I am looking for someone who has heard both is because both speakers were made by Kevin Scott...and I think set up with his guidance incl selection of equipment.

Therefore, it would be helpful to understand how far beyond the 'main system' exceeds the more rudimentary one at Spiritland in London.

 

[morricab]

Thanks, Morricab...yes, I remember your comments and Roy Gregory's about those.

- Have you heard the ones at Spiritland in London?

The reason I am looking for someone who has heard both is because both speakers were made by Kevin Scott...and I think set up with his guidance incl selection of equipment.

Therefore, it would be helpful to understand how far beyond the 'main system' exceeds the more rudimentary one at Spiritland in London.

Well LLoyd, the speakers can only be as good as the rest of the system feeding them and how they are setup. We could make your XLFs sound pretty poor as well with a bad choice in source, amp and dirty power or putting them into a highly reverberant room with no treatment. I haven't heard the Spiritland system but it sounds like A) It might not be the latest version and B) Is not optimized in several ways.

I have commented many times that I think most people would get more out of a system by getting all the electronics optimized than having killer speakers but the rest of the system be mediocre. I have heard many times excellent electronics elevate what I thought were average speakers to levels I would not have believed possible.

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks. I listened to them and found them grainy...better than your average bar system but not pure in the way I was expecting. That said, has anyone heard the Living Voice systems setup by Definitive?

The main one is quite better at Munich though the one in Munich is very colored, over smooth sounding, and not dynamic. You can also hear the disparate drivers. I haven't heard it set up properly elsewhere

 

[dcathro]

I think he underestimated the time to optimize the two-way! All my systems currently are two-way because I have to have coherence and it is, as you rightly said, nearly impossible to achieve in multi-way systems. Before moving completely to horns, I was into huge full range electrostats that were essentially single driver.

He meant for a very experienced designer like himself, and that was given that the drivers were well selected.

 

[morricab]

The main one is quite better at Munich though the one in Munich is very colored, over smooth sounding, and not dynamic. You can also hear the disparate drivers. I haven't heard it set up properly elsewhere

Disagree completely with your assessment...so does just about everyone else I have listened with or talked to about that setup.

 

[LL21]

The main one is quite better at Munich though the one in Munich is very colored, over smooth sounding, and not dynamic. You can also hear the disparate drivers. I haven't heard it set up properly elsewhere

Thanks...helpful and will bear that in mind when someday we listen to them.