Are there any "giant-killer" speakers?

[Audio_Karma]

The Essence Electrostatic Speakers and Matching Gear just might be the BEST >"Giant-Killer-System"< nobody has heard...

 

[stehno]

This is a sidebar to the OP, so we shouldn't let it take over here, Al, but I will answer briefly. Of course everything in the signal chain has the opportunity to introduce distortion, it's a matter of how much.

You don't need much experience, and if measurements don't convince you, take that active preamp out of the system, replace it with another one, and another one, and listen to how much difference it makes. Get someone else to do it for you and see if you even know which pre you're listening to. Now, leave the best pre in place and start switching speakers. If you heard more difference between preamps than between speakers, throw them out and buy some mid fi.

You're not missing anything; you're just concluding that everything makes a difference without thinking about how much difference. The sonic differences between speakers are huge, to the point where ABX testing is pointless; anyone can differentiate A from B. The differences between competent electronics are very small. You would, to put it in your own words, have to get to a component that was "grossly inferior" to create the kind of difference speakers make. Heck, you might need a whole chain of grossly inferior components to create the kind of obvious sonic difference between, say, a Klipschorn and a Magico. As far as colorations (distortions) of the signal are concerned, speakers and electronics are not even in the same league.

Tim

Did I say anything about speaker differences? I could have sworn I was talking about shoring up a system in such a way as to make many a speaker a superior performer. Which not only was in line with the OP's original post, but especially the OP's last question in his OP.

Your diatribe reminds of a 2011 audio show I exhibited at, where it was not uncommon even after spending spending several minutes with visitors to first describe my technology and product then play a few tracks, for the listener to give me a glazed look and ask, "How much for the speakers?". Even though my product had nothing to do with the speakers.

Obviously my message at the show wasn't coming across to the many with a special passion for speakers, so by the 3rd show I dropped the $30k speaker loaners and opted for a pair of inferior $9k speaker loaners. Regrettably, that switch didn't help my cause much as visitors remained equally enamored with the $9k speakers. Which I suppose helps substantiate the point I was trying to make to the OP.

 

[bonzo75]

That's an interesting one, Bonzo, and I wouldn't say no to a trip to Leipzig. Sadly, my budget would be more like 30-40% of that number, which is quite a long way off.

In a way I've given up on ever getting really top-level sound in my room, and I'd be perfectly happy with "enjoyable" at this stage. That's another story, however, and not really my motivation for this thread, since even if budget was infinite I'd never fit the Rockport Arrakis and Avant-garde Trios of this world into the man cave. This thread is more born out of simple curiosity!

You will save more money on these on electronics and cables than on Rockport, and imo they will sound better. I love trios as well but they can't compare to these on tonality and realism. Trios have more scale and bass integration but WE are super. Also like I said they fit into your room and trios won't

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Did I say anything about speaker differences? I could have sworn I was talking about shoring up a system in such a way as to make many a speaker a superior performer. Which not only was in line with the OP's original post, but especially the OP's last question in his OP.

Your diatribe reminds of a 2011 audio show I exhibited at, where it was not uncommon even after spending spending several minutes with visitors to first describe my technology and product then play a few tracks, for the listener to give me a glazed look and ask, "How much for the speakers?". Even though my product had nothing to do with the speakers.

Obviously my message at the show wasn't coming across to the many with a special passion for speakers, so by the 3rd show I dropped the $30k speaker loaners and opted for a pair of inferior $9k speaker loaners. Regrettably, that switch didn't help my cause much as visitors remained equally enamored with the $9k speakers. Which I suppose helps substantiate the point I was trying to make to the OP.

Diatribe? OK. Enjoy believing that two competent preamps can be as different as two different speaker designs.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

Diatribe? OK. Enjoy believing that two competent preamps can be as different as two different speaker designs.

Tim

Tim,

Comparing apples to oranges ... The type of differences we perceive in electronics is of a different type of those perceived between speakers. And yes, IMHO and many others humble opinions two different preamplifiers can be night and day. But please do not ask me what is the photon flux that separates night from day.

BTW, for statistic purposes, can you estimate what is the percentage of non competent preamps in high-end?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,

Comparing apples to oranges ... The type of differences we perceive in electronics is of a different type of those perceived between speakers. And yes, IMHO and many others humble opinions two different preamplifiers can be night and day. But please do not ask me what is the photon flux that separates night from day.

BTW, for statistic purposes, can you estimate what is the percentage of non competent preamps in high-end?

Exactly my point. And enough. I don't want to see this thread, which could be very interesting, turn into another argument.

Tim

 

[PeterA]

Exactly my point. And enough. I don't want to see this thread, which could be very interesting, turn into another argument.

Tim

I agree. This is an interesting topic. Let's not ruin the thread.

Speaking for only myself, I would prefer to read any mention of stehno's invention in its own thread. I don't want to read about it in a speaker thread or in other threads when no one knows anything about it.

 

[stehno]

Diatribe? OK.

Sorry. Little diatribe.

Enjoy believing that two competent preamps can be as different as two different speaker designs.

After several what appear to be straw man arguments, I'm starting to think one of us is trying to communicate and the other isn't here.

 

[ddk]

There are too many examples. Go to a decent online studio supply store (Sweetwater will do) and look at brands like JBL, Dynaudio, Focal, Genelec, Neuman and Event. Keep scrolling till you get the the more expensive stuff, there is a lot of cheap "project studio" stuff in these stores.

In normal listening rooms, I actually prefer the best 2-way systems available, with the smaller mid-bass drivers (around 6" or less), paired with the recommended subs. It's hard to get above $2k each in this class of monitor, and that includes amplification and, often, DAC and DSP. If you've got a really big room, you might feel the need to step up to more powerful monitors with 8" or 10" mid-bass drivers, but to my ear, you lose some clarity in the critical mid range when you do. You'll still be at a fraction of the cost of "high end" passive speakers, and you won't have to buy amplification.

Just buy the subs the manufacturer matches to the monitors of choice. Pro audio engineers really are better at "synergy" than audio hobbyists.

If you really want to step up, look at midfield monitors or mastering monitors. The much-discussed JBL M2 system is arguably the SOTA, while they're not cheap, they still look like a heck of a bargain compared to high end passive speakers and amps.

This approach -- active, sub/sat, is the very definition of "bang for the buck," and the bang is so strong, you'll wonder what you've been doing with your money all these years.

Tim

Not for me Tim, its for OP's benefit. I haven't come across anything worthwhile in this category for many years, Diapson and maybe others have a practical need. Why don't you tell them the exact models of this type of speaker system that you recommend and which actual giants were slain in direct comparison. Haven't seen the M2 compared any high end systems either and their primary application according to JBL is surround sound mastering studios, how does it apply to high end audio?

david

 

[Whatmore]

Are we allowed to include DIY type systems?
If so, a pair of heavily modded Acoustat speakers (directly driven by a heavily modded amp)that a friend had, completely slayed pretty much any other speakers I've heard at any price point.

 

[LL21]

Are we allowed to include DIY type systems?
If so, a pair of heavily modded Acoustat speakers (directly driven by a heavily modded amp)that a friend had, completely slayed pretty much any other speakers I've heard at any price point.

I have never heard Acoustats, but would like to someday. RIP Mr. Acoustat who has a member here.

 

[stehno]

I agree. This is an interesting topic. Let's not ruin the thread.

Speaking for only myself, I would prefer to read any mention of stehno's invention in its own thread. I don't want to read about it in a speaker thread or in other threads when no one knows anything about it.

That's cute, Peter. Especially since I made no mention of my product when addressing the OP's questions. In fact, and quite to the contrary, I was going to get into forms of AC mgmt but Al kinda' beat me to it, though he barely scratched the surface.

 

[PeterA]

Did I say anything about speaker differences? I could have sworn I was talking about shoring up a system in such a way as to make many a speaker a superior performer. Which not only was in line with the OP's original post, but especially the OP's last question in his OP.

Your diatribe reminds of a 2011 audio show I exhibited at, where it was not uncommon even after spending spending several minutes with visitors to first describe my technology and product then play a few tracks, for the listener to give me a glazed look and ask, "How much for the speakers?". Even though my product had nothing to do with the speakers.

Obviously my message at the show wasn't coming across to the many with a special passion for speakers, so by the 3rd show I dropped the $30k speaker loaners and opted for a pair of inferior $9k speaker loaners. Regrettably, that switch didn't help my cause much as visitors remained equally enamored with the $9k speakers. Which I suppose helps substantiate the point I was trying to make to the OP.

Interesting post. There was just a new thread started about system priorities. This post may be quite relevant in that thread.

 

[NorthStar]

I have never heard Acoustats, but would like to someday. RIP Mr. Acoustat who has a member here.

I often think of Andre. ...He was a great music lover man. ... R.I.P. Andre

Me neither; I've never heard the Acoustats, but they look awesome as if they were magic in music. ...And with Andre, his music is sure magic...celestial and it follows him wherever he is in that paradise's corner on top of the soft white clouds of heaven.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Not for me Tim, its for OP's benefit. I haven't come across anything worthwhile in this category for many years, Diapson and maybe others have a practical need. Why don't you tell them the exact models of this type of speaker system that you recommend and which actual giants were slain in direct comparison. Haven't seen the M2 compared any high end systems either and their primary application according to JBL is surround sound mastering studios, how does it apply to high end audio?

david

I liked a JBL series with DSP that has recently been discontinued. I assume they'll be replaced with a new series with the new wave form they've developed. I don't remember the model #s, but as I said in my earlier post here, I like the smaller ones, with the 6" mid bass driver. I think the Dynaudios are also nice, easy to listen to. They have a slightly soft high end which is probably more friendly for audiophile ears. Some of the Focals have really impressed me. The Adams are really good at some things. But they're all still speakers, the most variable link in the chain, and you can't lump them all together. What I like specifically is probably not relevant as the broader point, which is why I made that point instead of specific recommendations. There's a whole category of speaker design out there that is the standard in pro audio, and largely ignored by the audiophile community, and it has some very distinct advantages including design and manufacturing efficiencies that make "bang for the buck" a natural.

"Giant killers?" Depends on what you call a giant. You love vintage horns. I had vintage horns back when they weren't vintage. I wouldn't care to live with them today. I think the better active, pro sub/sat setups will slay those giants pretty easily on many fronts. But that depends on what you want from your system. Different strokes.

Tim

 

[Enoch Root]

Hello, OP.

It's been a while since I was as deep into the high end as I once was.

When I was a dealer, I had the opportunity to attend many shows, audition many fine products and even sell some of them. This ended for me in '08 when the business closed and, as I said, I haven't really been keeping up.

But in answer to your initial question, the Usher Be-10 which at the time retailed for about 16K, easily outperformed many speakers that were on the market for more than twice that amount.

They certainly struck me as giant killers.

 

[ddk]

When it comes to electronics, you occasionally find an amp or DAC or whatever that punches well above its weight (or at the very least, reviews that claim it does), but I feel like this is less true of loudspeakers. Of course there isn't a straight map between price and performance in any area of hifi, I'm not suggesting that, but it seems to me there is quite a small number of very well-regarded speaker manufacturers whose products come up again and again in high-end discussions, but not many outlier products. Is this a reflection of reality, a reflection of marketing, or am I mistaken in the first place? It certainly makes sense that speakers are more difficult to design and build, but surely there are smart designers in unknown pockets of the globe doing great work that doesn't make it in to the popular hifi press? A look at the show reports would suggest that there are LOTS of other options, but the names never seem to get a mention outside of those reports. Admittedly, quite a few of these seem to have price-tags to match the big boys, so they hardly tick the giant-killer box, but they still leave me curious.

Of course, I could put this thread another way and simply ask how can I get SOTA performance for peanuts??

In reality your Kharma 3.2s are one of the best small speakers around, I should know as the US importer at the time who worked with the factory to raise the performance of the original 3.0. to 3.1 & beyond versions. In its own right the 3.2 is a veritable giant, what exactly are you looking to change?

david

 

[Rodney Gold]

I have experimented a lot with pro audio studio monitors .. ATC, Genelec , KrK etc..
ATC and Genelec do some stunning stuff .. I listened to a Genelec based system the other day and was truly blown away .. their top of the range speakers(I think it was the 1000 or 8000 models) and twin Genelec subs with their room correction..
Krk VXT8 + their 12sho sub for round $4000 is an exceptional system too for the money ..
Prior to my giya G1's , I used meridian DSP6000's and 2 SVS sb13 ultra subs , bought the whole lot for $5000 2nd hand.. it took the G1's to beat it at more than 10x the price..

 

[MasH]

I have not read every posting in this thread, but I have yet to see Vapor Audio mentioned. They are a fairly new company, but they have been to a few shows in recent years. They use mostly off the shelf drivers, but some of the very best. They also use very good parts for their crossovers, which they can alter to suit the customer's taste. Certainly not least, they make beautiful, extremely solid cabinets. The only problem is that they sell mostly direct, so the only time you can hear them would be at one of the shows.

I don't own any of their speakers, and I am sort of a diy guy, but they choose components as I would, and build cabinets that I wish I could.

 

[Diapason]

There is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't enjoy the very best sound in your room, but first you need to understand exactly what the room and speakers are contributing.
Keith.

Well, without getting into the wider question (I know I need to measure my room again, I know, I know!!) what the room contributes more than anything else is standing waves and flutter echo. The room is an extension to the original house, which basically means it has full, external-style concrete walls all around. It's a long cuboid with the sonic signature of a reflective hallway, and is a veritable festival of peaks and nulls. That's not including the dreadful ringing that a handclap will demonstrate (or would have before the sound treatments went in). Untreated, it's the worst room I've ever heard, anywhere, ever. People complaining about bad sound in hotel rooms at shows don't know the half of it, they're only in the ha'penny place (this might be an Irish expression, you get my drift). So far I've been able to choose between reflective monstrosity or overly deadened and lifeless. The middle ground has been difficult to find.

In fairness, this is all a question for a different thread, and we've covered some of it in the "default state: dissatisfaction" thread, so I don't want to sully the entire forum with my woes! I may be able to get SOTA sound in this room, but I almost certainly can't afford what's required to get there, and I'm also psychologically unwilling to take the leap of faith required if it involves a lot of expense and I can't hear the results in advance. As I said above, I'm no longer targeting SOTA, I'd be happy with enjoyable, no matter how coloured that might be.

(I probably should have refrained from putting that throwaway last line in the OP as it's a bit of distraction and makes the thread more about my own situation than I had intended. I assume if this holy grail existed we'd all be enjoying it by now. Don't we all want Champagne performance for beer money?! Maybe we don't...? )