Are we hurting our ears with clean power?

[Kingrex]

A few years back I bought an Audio Black Shadow 845 that had all sorts of issues. I spend thousands and it still has issues. Last week while testing an idea on behind the wall wires, I reinserted my Black Shadows. I was pleasantly surprised with the results. I actually much prefer the Black Shadow over the Dartzeel for a number of reasons. BUT. I am highly aware the Dartzeel stomps the Black Shadow into the dirt when it comes to noise levels. I am very aware there are odd order harmonics with the Black Shadow that are limiting how much volume I can push the system with. The use of stranded behind the wall wire as well as a Torus isolation transformer have knocked down some noise, and smoothed over some levels of heard harshness. The harsh is still there, but to a much lesser extent and really only presents itself when the volume is turned up past pleasant listening levels.

Contrast that to my interactions with the Dartzeel. The Dartzeel is very quiet. I believe it has very low distortions levels. Compare .05% to the 1.5% or more in the Audion. I have no idea if the harmonics in either are even/odd or where they lay and at what levels. But it is obvious the Dartzeel is much less overall. The Atmasphere Class D Monoblocks are even lower. What this means is I am able to turn my volume up much higher with the Dartzeel/Atmasphere amps. As in a lot higher. And I don't feel any at the moment fatigue. But am I impacting my hearing now. A low level odd order harmonic is sensed as irritating keeping you from turning up the overall volume. I am probably no where near levels that are damaging to my hearing. A very clean amp with low distortions that allows me to really crank the music loud on the other hand is hitting levels of output that are knows to damage hearing. I have left a few audiophile homes who use very clean SS amps and I am noise sensitive for days after. The same happened last weekend when I had friends over for a listen. I got the Dartzeel too worked up and for about 3 days after I did not play music and about a week before I did not feel sensitized to it.

So, are we chasing this goal of super low level distortion levels, only to find we are damaging the one sense that is critical for enjoying audio playback.

 

[ICUToo]

I am inclined to agree re: distortion and level. My Plixir / Oladra / MSB Ref / Audionet Humboldt / Magico A5 system is SO clean that I tend to play it VERY loud. There is no distortion or any ugliness to slow me down. Only when one tries to hold a conversation does one realise that it is really loud music- otherwise it just sound great.
But I am not sure I can blame "clean power". I think it's the whole chain from power to speaker...

 

[Kingrex]

ICU, yes, what you say is more accurate to my comment. I'm taking the whole chain. Its the Dartzeel that really got me playing much louder. That and all the work on my digital. And my whole power to my rack. Its a very quiet system.

But drop the Audion SET845 in and I'm immediately aware the distortions are much higher. It shuts my volume level down.

 

[Al M.]

A few years back I bought an Audio Black Shadow 845 that had all sorts of issues. I spend thousands and it still has issues. Last week while testing an idea on behind the wall wires, I reinserted my Black Shadows. I was pleasantly surprised with the results. I actually much prefer the Black Shadow over the Dartzeel for a number of reasons. BUT. I am highly aware the Dartzeel stomps the Black Shadow into the dirt when it comes to noise levels. I am very aware there are odd order harmonics with the Black Shadow that are limiting how much volume I can push the system with. The use of stranded behind the wall wire as well as a Torus isolation transformer have knocked down some noise, and smoothed over some levels of heard harshness. The harsh is still there, but to a much lesser extent and really only presents itself when the volume is turned up past pleasant listening levels.

Contrast that to my interactions with the Dartzeel. The Dartzeel is very quiet. I believe it has very low distortions levels. Compare .05% to the 1.5% or more in the Audion. I have no idea if the harmonics in either are even/odd or where they lay and at what levels. But it is obvious the Dartzeel is much less overall. The Atmasphere Class D Monoblocks are even lower. What this means is I am able to turn my volume up much higher with the Dartzeel/Atmasphere amps. As in a lot higher. And I don't feel any at the moment fatigue. But am I impacting my hearing now. A low level odd order harmonic is sensed as irritating keeping you from turning up the overall volume. I am probably no where near levels that are damaging to my hearing. A very clean amp with low distortions that allows me to really crank the music loud on the other hand is hitting levels of output that are knows to damage hearing. I have left a few audiophile homes who use very clean SS amps and I am noise sensitive for days after. The same happened last weekend when I had friends over for a listen. I got the Dartzeel too worked up and for about 3 days after I did not play music and about a week before I did not feel sensitized to it.

So, are we chasing this goal of super low level distortion levels, only to find we are damaging the one sense that is critical for enjoying audio playback.

You are correct to raise the issue. I do think you can play too loudly too quickly with a clean sound. I have always used an SPL meter, but since my system has started to play as cleanly as it does now (with the latest changes in power cords, DAC and speaker set-up), I am sometimes shocked looking at my SPL meter and see that the music plays more loudly than advised.

Even though I prefer to listen loudly, I am striving to follow NIOSH recommendations of maximum loudness to prevent hearing loss beyond normal aging:

Facts & Statistics, Charts & Graphs - Noise | NIOSH | CDC

Graphic: How to "look" at noise: intensity comparisons with NIOSH recommended possible exposure time.

www.cdc.gov

I buy dedicated SPL meters from Amazon for 20 - 25 bucks; preferably I have more than one for functional cross-check. They are A-weighted like the NIOSH recommendations. Phone apps for loudness measuring are mostly worthless; they can be off by 10-15 dB. You do need a dedicated SPL meter.

Giving your ears a break now and then is also useful. After blasting a loud orchestral piece I may switch to chamber music or not listen at all for a while, such as a half hour or a full hour.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I am unclear about this concept of “clean” sound. I would’ve thought that the clean sound allows you to turn down the volume because you can hear things more easily.

Or is the point that the prior “dirty” sound was harsh and bright and edgy, and so with the clean sound you can listen louder without fatigue?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Instead of multiple cheap SPL meters, I recommend getting a Reed.

 

[stehno]

Good topic but I suspect facts and truths are just as evasive regarding this topic as perhaps most any other high-end audio topic.

For example. Do we even know if industry-accepted standard distortions like THD are legitimate and/or important or do we just assume such stats are important becausee they've been around for 45 years? Or when one claims distortions are greatly lowered, is it not possible that there still could exist volumes of other distortions that remain unchanged?

I could also present the hypothetical that ALL significant distortions have been sufficiently addressed and greatly reduced in a specific playback system but if just the speakers / subwoofers are not sufficiently dialed in the presentation will sound unbalanced / lean and this alone can lead to ear bleed at higher volumes.

I for one am apprehensive to just believe what others say. Say auditory health organization developed a standard that we ought not listen to playback music any higher than 88db for sustainted periods of time. How might such an organization reach such a decision? If they are using playback systems to help them reach such standards, then are they not just as if not more susceptible to all the varying distortions just as the rest of us? If I thought their systems and configs used were entirely above reproach, I might pay more attention to them. But it's pretty much a guaranatee they are not.

Also, I suspect it depends much on the genre of music one is listening to. For example. Even if ALL distortions have been greatly minimized and speakers / subs finely tuned, but one only listened to Eddy Van Halen over sustained periods of time near/at live performance volume levels, I've little doubt that hearing damage will ensue.

On the other hand, it has also been said that higher db distortions most always accompanied by higher volume music is what leads to hearing damage. That I have no difficulty believing.

 

[Kingrex]

I could also present the hypothetical that ALL significant distortions have been sufficiently addressed and greatly reduced in a specific playback system but if just the speakers / subwoofers are not sufficiently dialed in the presentation will sound unbalanced / lean and this alone can lead to ear bleed at higher volumes.

What here would lead to ear bleed. Why wouldn't it just sound thin or woolly.

 

[Kingrex]

Stehno made me rethink how I have phrased what I have said. Maybe its more correct to ASK, why is the SET glorious and wonderful at moderate and below level, but hits me with a hard stop when I start to turn it up.

Is it distortions in the amp?
Is it a misbalance or something not dialed in between the amp/speaker/preamp?
Is it maybe just bad frequency response that is causing my horn tweeter to beam at me? Or possibly be playing way louder than I think in a narrow frequency.

I think I need to buy an affordable db meter on Amazon. My real concern is my ears. Last time I checked I had excellent hearing. I would like to keep it that way.

 

[stehno]

What here would lead to ear bleed. Why wouldn't it just sound thin or woolly.

An unbalanced lean presentation leads toward a more unnatural glaring sound as the higher frequency become overly thinned / lean which can easily lead toward an ear bleed. Higher frequencies are already thin/lean (that's what higher frequencies are, right?) and hence it doesn't take much to tip the scale in the wrong direction. Also remember that we're talking at elevated volume levels perhaps approaching live performance volume levels.

 

[stehno]

Stehno made me rethink how I have phrased what I have said. Maybe its more correct to ASK, why is the SET glorious and wonderful at moderate and below level, but hits me with a hard stop when I start to turn it up.

Is it distortions in the amp?
Is it a misbalance or something not dialed in between the amp/speaker/preamp?
Is it maybe just bad frequency response that is causing my horn tweeter to beam at me? Or possibly be playing way louder than I think in a narrow frequency.

I think I need to buy an affordable db meter on Amazon. My real concern is my ears. Last time I checked I had excellent hearing. I would like to keep it that way.

Have you also considered the possibility that it's less distortion in your amp that causes the discomfort?

For example. A less distorted / less colored amplifier usually ensures more detail / more music info embedded in the recording remains audible at the speaker. Well, along with more music info becoming / remaining audible at the speaker, more distortions elsewhere in the system will also become / remain audible at the speaker as well. Especially since electronics ought not discriminate between music and distortions as they process the input signal. At least within the audible frequency range.

In contrast, the other amp that seems more musical (more tolerable?) may be inducing a coloration such as an electronics induced "warmth" that masks other distortions elsewhere in the system.

 

[wil]

Instead of multiple cheap SPL meters, I recommend getting a Reed.

I like the “db meter” phone app. It provides 3 simultaneous read outs: current db, peak db and average db. You don’t have push buttons to see the different readouts.

It reads about 5 db higher than my dedicated meter, but it’s consistent, so no problem.

As far as @Al M. using A Weighted, I thought C weight should be used for music measuring?

 

[Blackmorec]

In stereo hi-fi, what actually reaches your ears are 2 sets of soundwaves specifically formulated to create the illusion of music being performed in a space (actual venue or engineer created environment). The brain takes those 2 sets of soundwaves and applies the exact same algorithms is applies to naturallyn occurring monophonic sound (single source). The engineered stereo illusion results in the brain producing the conscious awareness of 3 dimensional music in space. Anything that interferes with the exactness of those 2 sets of soundwaves; their relative amplitude, relative phase (timing) and relative frequency spectrum upsets the illusion and results in our brain’s inability to ‘resolve’ certain aspects of the music. Resolution means the ability to separate based on differences. High resolution is the ability to separate small differences.
When something is unresolved, it doesn’t disappear, its simply ‘not separated‘ ie unresolved.
Any part of the music you hear that is unresolved is simply not separated from other parts of the music. Its energy is still present, but instead of that energy producing some distinct detail, its simply combined with other parts of the music as distortion.
For example, a poor hi-fi produces very little ‘ambience’. The ambiance’s vibrational energy is still present but is heard as an addition to the direct music, such that the direct music you hear has extra energy embedded, which sounds wrong and uncomfortable. This extra energy is heard as distortion, in this case usually as hardness or harshness. Play the same music on a more resolving system and what you hear is the direct music plus the ambience, both with the correct energy levels.

Basically, the effect of this lack of resolution is to limit the volume at which music still sounds pleasant. There are many reasons why systems loose resolution; basic lack of fidelity, excess noise, overdriving components, listening room reflections etc. Most systems with a problem will get worse as volume is increased. This stops you listening too loud. Systems without these limitations do not have that built-in loudness ‘barrier’ or pain level, so with such systems, care must be taken not to overdrive and thereby damage the ears over the long term.

So, a super clean, highly resolving system is far more pleasant to listen to at higher volumes, including levels which will ultimately damage your ears.

 

[Folsom]

Uh distortion only matters when it climbs greatly at the tail end of max power on most devices. It’s likely other things that make it sound wrong as you turn the volume up. And I wouldn’t say very low distortion inherently makes low volume good either. I’d go as far as to say the speakers play a bigger factor and are in fact the larger source of actual distortion and not just differentiation.

Some power filtration (many/most audiophile) tend to cause saturation and so it limits the power to some degree, making high volumes softer and more tolerable; especially on stereos that have bite to begin with.

 

[GroovySauce]

I am unclear about this concept of “clean” sound. I would’ve thought that the clean sound allows you to turn down the volume because you can hear things more easily.

Or is the point that the prior “dirty” sound was harsh and bright and edgy, and so with the clean sound you can listen louder without fatigue?

Over the last few months I've been working on my new dedicated room. It's almost finished. I added a lot of diaphragmatic absorption. I'm shocked at how low of volume I listen at now.

I'm hitting peaks of less than 70 dB C weighted. The it can be thunderous, feeling bass through the floor. Yet, a vast depth of subtle details throughout are easily heard and explored. My guess is that cleaning up the bass increases the dynamic contrast. Increasing the contrast activates the arousal of the senses more intensely, triggering my concern that the volume is too loud to safely listen to.

I have a UMIK-1 USB mic. I then calibrated my phone to that at 75dB. Not perfect but it's close enough for a quick check.

 

[DaveC]

The type of sound makes a big difference, for example listening to live amplified music at a venue through a cheap PA with lots of distortion will cause issues moreso vs a high quality PA setup with less distortion. Sounds with sharp-edged waveforms are worse than smooth, for example a chainsaw makes noise that is more harmful than a sine wave. Then there's time, listening to one track at high SPLs is usually not a big deal, but hours of listening at the same SPLs might be.

I try not to overdo it, distortion or no, but my ears seem much happier with low distortion and low noise. I think you can listen at higher SPLs for longer with a very clean, low noise system, but we should all be careful with our hearing of course.

Clean sound can allow for better low volume listening, but it depends on the speakers and amp in question as well as having low background noise and good acoustics in the room. SET amps and single drivers can really do low-SPL well, but typically low sensitivity speakers and large amps need a higher minimum volume to sound best.

 

[zerostargeneral]

Blackmore, Sir,

This is one of the best paragraphs on stereo sound I have encountered. You have verbally summed the most complex math without verbiage.

I see that as a genuine triumph.

Kindest regards, G.

 

[morricab]

A few years back I bought an Audio Black Shadow 845 that had all sorts of issues. I spend thousands and it still has issues. Last week while testing an idea on behind the wall wires, I reinserted my Black Shadows. I was pleasantly surprised with the results. I actually much prefer the Black Shadow over the Dartzeel for a number of reasons. BUT. I am highly aware the Dartzeel stomps the Black Shadow into the dirt when it comes to noise levels. I am very aware there are odd order harmonics with the Black Shadow that are limiting how much volume I can push the system with. The use of stranded behind the wall wire as well as a Torus isolation transformer have knocked down some noise, and smoothed over some levels of heard harshness. The harsh is still there, but to a much lesser extent and really only presents itself when the volume is turned up past pleasant listening levels.

Contrast that to my interactions with the Dartzeel. The Dartzeel is very quiet. I believe it has very low distortions levels. Compare .05% to the 1.5% or more in the Audion. I have no idea if the harmonics in either are even/odd or where they lay and at what levels. But it is obvious the Dartzeel is much less overall. The Atmasphere Class D Monoblocks are even lower. What this means is I am able to turn my volume up much higher with the Dartzeel/Atmasphere amps. As in a lot higher. And I don't feel any at the moment fatigue. But am I impacting my hearing now. A low level odd order harmonic is sensed as irritating keeping you from turning up the overall volume. I am probably no where near levels that are damaging to my hearing. A very clean amp with low distortions that allows me to really crank the music loud on the other hand is hitting levels of output that are knows to damage hearing. I have left a few audiophile homes who use very clean SS amps and I am noise sensitive for days after. The same happened last weekend when I had friends over for a listen. I got the Dartzeel too worked up and for about 3 days after I did not play music and about a week before I did not feel sensitized to it.

So, are we chasing this goal of super low level distortion levels, only to find we are damaging the one sense that is critical for enjoying audio playback.

Have you measured the actual SPL levels? That would be a good start. Do you feel listening fatigue when listening loud to the "clean" amps for sometime?

Could it be that the Black Shadow is starting to sound harsh because you are pushing it towards clipping? Most SETs don't really cleanly put out their rated power (often they are rated at 3-5% THD for the stated power).

The DarTZeel amps are not particularly low distortion designs by SS/feedback amp standards. They use only local feedback around the output stage I think. It has a lot of harmonics, both even and odd all the way out to basically infinity. The main problem is that it is not an exponential decay with increasing harmonic order. The Audion, at a couple of watts but not at 20 watts, probably has a nicer decay with increasing harmonic order but will look increasingly nasty as the power goes up.

I guess the question is, which amp do you prefer to listen to when keeping within a reasonable loudness envelope? Setting all three at the max level in which the Audion still sounds good and clean, which of the three provides the best listening experience. If the answer is the Black Shadow, then I would recommend that you find another SET that can deliver more real world power cleanly. Or a more sensitive speaker.

I can listen quite loud with my amps and sensitive speakers for hours without fatigue and without my amps starting to sound "dirty" but I have heard this effect when I have tried amps in the <20 watt range. My speakers can sound really great with a 6 watt 300B amp but only at moderate volumes...push it and it squeals.

 

[morricab]

Stehno made me rethink how I have phrased what I have said. Maybe its more correct to ASK, why is the SET glorious and wonderful at moderate and below level, but hits me with a hard stop when I start to turn it up.

Is it distortions in the amp?
Is it a misbalance or something not dialed in between the amp/speaker/preamp?
Is it maybe just bad frequency response that is causing my horn tweeter to beam at me? Or possibly be playing way louder than I think in a narrow frequency.

I think I need to buy an affordable db meter on Amazon. My real concern is my ears. Last time I checked I had excellent hearing. I would like to keep it that way.

You have to think about what the REAL sensitivity of your speaker system is. The claim I think for your speaker is 96dB but do you know if this is at all accurate? The reason I ask is that there is a lot of sensitivity inflation in the industry. Audio Note was claiming 96dB but Stereophile found around 91dB...5dB is a lot of difference for amps with lowish power.

I think you are just finding the limit of the amp. It could be the speaker load is also not as benign as you think (they claim 8 ohm but what does that mean?) and this can rob your amp of power as well.

Why do you feel the need to listen so loud with the other two amps? Is it because they sound kind of lifeless at the volume levels that are comfortable with the Audion and where the Audion is preferred?

 

[Kingrex]

I fiddled with the setup and took more measurements.
With my phone db app, at normal listening volumes with either the 845 or the Dartzeel, my peek volume at my chair, about 7 feet from speaker hit 76 db.

On average, the high points of music were between 55 db and 65 db.

My ampacity meter set to .000 measured peak ampacity from a speaker cable as .12 amps on the woofer and .067 on the mid/horn. I am not breaking 1/5 of a watt total at my prefered listening level.

I moved my speakers. This had a large affect. The amps are so different in totality, a speaker adjustment was necessary. This brought a much better balance to the sound. More even and less beaming.

I changed a driver tube. Also a pleasant change. A tad more smooth with less glass sound.
The 845 is an Elrog.

I analyzed source more closely what am I feeding as a signal.

I don't want to start a pissing match, but here are some impressions.

The source is critical. My digital on a whole is more lean than my vinyl. I can play the vinyl a lot longer than the digital.

Either source I am highly aware the quality of the recording with the 845. If its not excellent, it's annoying.

Here is the fighting words. The 845 is head and shoulders, way past the Dartzeel when it comes to instruments being real and believable. I am gobsmacked and shocked at what I hear. So much so, I could only handle the Dartzeel for 15 minutes or so and I wanted it out of my system.

Yet the persistent (something) continues to exist with the 845. I was sitting last night with the music very low. About 45 db. Maybe a 50 db peak. I had a wav digital file on my harddrive of a decent recoding I like in the background. After about 10 minutes the sound was agitating me and I had to get up and click my preamp 3 notch down. I think that is 2.25db. WTF.

I honestly don't know if its distortion or something else. I don't know why this would happen, but maybe the timing is smeared. While very clear with amazing decay, I almost struggle a little to decider what I hear. And frequency peaks. I was shocked how much speaker placement influenced the sound. I have read serious pissing match here that an amp when reviewed should never be accompanied by speaker repositioning. Well, I'm her to tell you, these 2 amps like the speakers in different locations.

My next task would be to try a Umik 1 mic and measure the frequency response. I may have some steep peaks in the top end. The playback strikes me as hard, a little glassy, very dynamic. Probably tilted up in frequency response.

My thread was around how loud I can play with the Dartzeel. My prefered db is about 55 to 65 db average with peaks to 76 db. When I had guests over or get worked into a mood, I am pushing the Dartzeel to peaks I assume in the 80s. I didn't try this yraterday, but I have played plenty about 5 clicks higher on my preamp which are 3/4 db per click. So 3.75 db higher.