Best audiophile switch

[sbo6]

Tom--and many others--began to understand this stuff from our paper of more than 4 years ago:
Understanding how perturbations on digital signals can affect sound quality without changing bits...
Just sayin'...

I've been very happy with my UpTone Audio etherregen. Great little device, especially with an external clock which the sonic benefits are clearly audible.

 

[NigelB]

And clock accuracy

No. Not in ethernet which is asynchronous by nature. If you can hear a difference by using a different/better clock in the ethernet domain, and it id evident that many do, it is not because of lower jitter = improved timing. It is most likely to do with the higher quality circuitry in the external clock being lower noise.

Jitter in ethernet refers to variability in the timing of the arrival of packets of data; it's a concern in overloaded corporate networks because at extremes it can lead to data transmission issues. It is not the same jitter we speak of once we unpack these data packets - after the 7-layer OSI ethernet model has done its job of ensuring the data arrives uncorrupted, with error correction and retransmission as necessary, At this point our streamer has unpacked the data packets/frames into a continuous bitstream for onward transmission to the DAC and clock accuracy is vitally important to sound quality in the (post-unpacking bit of a) streamer and in the DAC - but not before.

Extrapolation from the synchronous post-streamer world to the asynchronous pre-streamer world is inappropriate and unhelpful. Customers shouldn't need to understand this stuff but manufacturers operating in the pre-streamer domain have a duty to.

I'm with Hans's correction/retraction as referred to above. Isolation in the pre-streamer domain absolutely yes; noise reduction in the pre-streamer domain (including lower noise clocks) absolutely yes; clock accuracy in the pre-streamer domain absolutely no.

 

[Superdad]

I'm with Hans's correction/retraction as referred to above. Isolation in the pre-streamer domain absolutely yes; noise reduction in the pre-streamer domain (including lower noise clocks) absolutely yes; clock accuracy in the pre-streamer domain absolutely no.

I'm not sure why, despite our repeated explanations, so many people keep missing what we have been saying:
The mechanisms by which jitter/phase-noise on packet-data interfaces (Ethernet, USB, etc.) has an impact on the jitter/phase-noise at the DAC's master clock pin is indirect.
It is not about the bits or the jitter of the data--it is about the jitter/phase-noise generated throughout the chain, by the chips themselves, by the power networks, and by the clocks. Amplitude noise and phase-noise convert back and forth, and ANY resultant ground-plane noise (common-mode and not simply "filtered out") will make its way to the DAC's master clock input pin.

The stuff we are talking about is NOT any sort of "fringe" science. These are real factors that microwave RF engineers deal with all the time. It is also the very sort of thing that my partner John Swenson dealt with in the microscopic design of large-scale custom ASICs and PHYs for decades.

Proper measurement--with a high-speed differential probe and a cross-correlation phase-noise analyzer attached to the DAC master clock pin--readily shows variations caused by changes in upstream elements of packet data interfaces (USB, Ethernet, etc.), including clocking.

 

[jasond]

Unfortunately the loudest voices online are those who stay intentionally daft about the subject while attacking others who actually have a clue.

The Roon forum for example is a worst case scenario. Users nearly get attacked just by bringing up these kinds of topics. Sad to see moderators are not up to their tasks.

 

[Al Stewart]

I own two audiophile switches: the Innuos PhoenixNet and the Reiki Master Superswitch Pro (Reiki Pro). I tested them against one another before I purchased the Reiki Pro. I already owned the PhoenixNet. The Innuos PhoenixNet is a very good switch. I could hear its benefits immediately when I first put it in my system. It clearly reduced noise in the system compared to the Netgear switch that preceded it. But, the Reiki Pro has an even lower noise floor than the PhoenixNet. Frankly, it isn’t close. Having said that, putting the PhoenixNet and the Reiki Pro in a series (Router=>PhoenixNet=>Reiki Pro=>Innuos Statement NextGen music server=>DAC) made the largest impact on the noise floor. This combination vastly exceeded the capabilities of either switch on its own. If your budget allows two quality switches in tandem, then it is a worthwhile consideration—but I suggest you try it before you buy it.

BTW I’m a hobbyist. (I’m borrowing PeterA’s terminology to distinguish myself from those who make money selling audio equipment.)

 

[gionaz]

I, too, have been using three Ansuz switches in cascade for some time with excellent results! I have ordered another switch in place of one of the Ansuz switches that I will sell

 

[NigelB]

I'm not sure why, despite our repeated explanations, so many people keep missing what we have been saying:

I'm not sure you should assume that people are missing what you are saying; it might be because we/I disagree with you! Might...

The mechanisms by which jitter/phase-noise on packet-data interfaces (Ethernet, USB, etc.) has an impact on the jitter/phase-noise at the DAC's master clock pin is indirect.
It is not about the bits or the jitter of the data--it is about the jitter/phase-noise generated throughout the chain, by the chips themselves, by the power networks, and by the clocks. Amplitude noise and phase-noise convert back and forth, and ANY resultant ground-plane noise (common-mode and not simply "filtered out") will make its way to the DAC's master clock input pin.

The stuff we are talking about is NOT any sort of "fringe" science. These are real factors that microwave RF engineers deal with all the time. It is also the very sort of thing that my partner John Swenson dealt with in the microscopic design of large-scale custom ASICs and PHYs for decades.

Your point about the effect being indirect is a subtle but important one which it's clear many people don't get. We're talking RFI noise here. Focusing on noise, reducing noise, is critical to the role of a switch.

Proper measurement--with a high-speed differential probe and a cross-correlation phase-noise analyzer attached to the DAC master clock pin--readily shows variations caused by changes in upstream elements of packet data interfaces (USB, Ethernet, etc.), including clocking.

And listening of course.

 

[Superdad]

We're talking RFI noise here. Focusing on noise, reducing noise, is critical to the role of a switch.

“RFI” stands for radio frequency interference. VERY high frequencies.
Yet the most difficult to remove ground-plane noise that we measure is actually extremely low frequency—below 1KHz. That’s because proper PCB design and inductances most naturally deals with high frequency stuff, but the low frequency ground-plane noise persists.
I am not explaining the ‘why’ of this well because can’t recall this morning the proper explanation of this which John Swenson has imparted to me several times. (I have the memory of a goldfish. ;-))

 

[sbo6]

I'm not sure why, despite our repeated explanations, so many people keep missing what we have been saying:
The mechanisms by which jitter/phase-noise on packet-data interfaces (Ethernet, USB, etc.) has an impact on the jitter/phase-noise at the DAC's master clock pin is indirect.
It is not about the bits or the jitter of the data--it is about the jitter/phase-noise generated throughout the chain, by the chips themselves, by the power networks, and by the clocks.

Proper measurement--with a high-speed differential probe and a cross-correlation phase-noise analyzer attached to the DAC master clock pin--readily shows variations caused by changes in upstream elements of packet data interfaces (USB, Ethernet, etc.), including clocking.

Like I said, clock accuracy.

 

[kennyb123]

Like I said, clock accuracy.

That is not synonymous to what @Superdad wrote. I believe accuracy is measured in ppm while phase noise is measured in dBc/Hz. Clock specs list both, but what @Superdad and others have argued is that the latter matters more when one is looking to improve sound quality.

 

[sbo6]

That is not synonymous to what @Superdad wrote. I believe accuracy is measured in ppm while phase noise is measured in dBc/Hz. Clock specs list both, but what @Superdad and others have argued is that the latter matters more when one is looking to improve sound quality.

Do clocks matter? Yes.

 

[kennyb123]

Do clocks matter? Yes.

Can a misstatement matter? Yes it can, particularly if it leads another astray.

 

[Superdad]

Do clocks matter? Yes.

Indeed; Without clocks we’d never know when it was time to get a move on!
(It’s a lazy Sunday and I guess it’s time for me to get going with a project or two. We only get so many days—and I often wonder how many I have left. Seems such pondering comes naturally in these years past 60…. That and I seem to dribble sometimes. )

 

[NigelB]

Indeed; Without clocks we’d never know when it was time to get a move on!
(It’s a lazy Sunday and I guess it’s time for me to get going with a project or two. We only get so many days—and I often wonder how many I have left. Seems such pondering comes naturally in these years past 60…. That and I seem to dribble sometimes. )

I hit 65 a couple of weeks ago. No dribbling yet. Memory seems to be holding up fine too.

Did I mention I was 65 a couple of weeks ago?

 

[sbo6]

Can a misstatement matter? Yes it can, particularly if it leads another astray.

You're the kind of guy that has to get the last word in, wrong or right. Go you.

BTW, behind you sexagenarians by a bit, but not much. Enjoy!

 

[Superdad]

BTW, behind you sexagenarians by a bit, but not much.

I remind my wife that we are now sex-agenarians—so we should keep getting to it!

 

[kennyb123]

You're the kind of guy that has to get the last word in, wrong or right. Go you.

There is nothing wrong with getting the last word in. People do it all the time! The great irony though is that it’s those who toss out this barb do it in hopes that it will allow them to actually get the last word in. It’s an ad hominem in that attacks the person instead of attacking the argument that the person made.

I’m way off topic so I will stop now.

 

[sbo6]

There is nothing wrong with getting the last word in. People do it all the time! The great irony though is that it’s those who toss out this barb do it in hopes that it will allow them to actually get the last word in. It’s an ad hominem in that attacks the person instead of attacking the argument that the person made.

I’m way off topic so I will stop now.

The great irony is that it’s those who claim that those that toss out a barb do it in hopes that it will allow them to actually get the last word in. It’s an ad hominem that attacks the person instead of attacking the argument that the person made.

Have a great one mate!

 

[Di-fi]

You're the kind of guy that has to get the last word in, wrong or right. Go you.

Indeed, it can be frustrating when someone always insists on having the final word, especially if they seem resistant to other perspectives. It's essential to recognize that everyone brings value to the conversation and it doesn't need to be flawless. Let's make sure that everyone has the opportunity to contribute, without any one person dominating or speaking for others.

 

[NigelB]

You're the kind of guy that has to get the last word in, wrong or right. Go you.

BTW, behind you sexagenarians by a bit, but not much. Enjoy!

It's a long time since I've been called anything with "sex" in it but hey!