Best audiophile switch

Hmm... With that list it sounds link the "bottom line" is a minimum $3,000 ($6,900 being average of the 5)
Thanks for helping me with the new pricing strategy for our forthcoming EtherREGEN Gen2. ;)
That’s not what I said but it is your business I am sure someone will pay that just not me. :oops:
 
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And THAT is what makes this hobby so exciting for me. I LOVE the trial and error part. Otherwise I'd get bored.
I agree and that was my point, always evolving.
 
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Each system is different, each system is unique. System synergy plays a large part. What is pure and "the thing" for one?

Well, that very well may not be the case for all.

Tom
 
Emile from Taiko has a different view on this. He believes that the reason some perceive a benefit from multiple switches in series is because less offensive noise will mask more offensive noise. Kind of like how white noise pumped into a office can make voices less distracting (my paraphrase). I don’t have a way to validate his hypothesis, but it does seem to address what had perplexed me about this. Specifically, how can it be possible that more noisy switches can be perceived of as sounding better than fewer noisy switches. I’m not sure I buy the buffering argument.

There are some switches that do aim to pass less noise than they produce, but it still seems counterintuitive to use more than one of them in series.
I tend to believe Emile is right about this and cascaded switches might be introducing a kind of "dithering" effect.
Ansuz, although it might prove to be something entirely different, seem to be incorporating (among other things) some kind of "dither" technology in some of their TOTL Power switches.
 
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You think airing this a problem. IMO, it's a public service.(…) but I like to know there's good science, not just art and marketing behind the design.
Sorry I missed the comment after the subject was closed :-(
That was not my point, I wrote:
I'm concerned about the recent actions taken by UpTone Audio in publicly criticizing another manufacturer's product in this discussion forum. Sharing internal pictures and labeling components as "cheap" without considering the product's overall performance.
If you, as a customer, believe it's important to share pictures of devices you've opened to demonstrate how they produce bad sound, I see no reason to stop you. However, when manufacturers engage in this practice, it crosses a line, even more when they avoid discussing the sonic performance of a device that has already been judged by buyers as having good sound quality.

But let’s move on and compare the candidates for best audiophile switch WITH the internals exposed!
 
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Emile from Taiko has a different view on this. He believes that the reason some perceive a benefit from multiple switches in series is (…)
He also believes:

« Our approach is to not drown out irregular noise by hiding it in a wideband high noise floor but rather to make the offending noise itself inaudible »

« a reduction of a nasty glare & edginess but at the cost of lower overall levels of transparency AND reduced dynamics »

« And this is actually a big thing to keep in mind. A lot of network tweaks which "improve" the sound do so by making the sound more relaxing and easier to listen too, like releasing tension, and that can be perceived as a much better sound, no doubt. However, and this is something you may not notice right away or perhaps even at all, a reduction in dynamics, both micro and macro, often a smoothing effect in high frequencies, reducing dynamics there, and this has been a personal struggle for me for years with network tweaks, being able to achieve "better" sound at the cost of a reduction in dynamics, and ultimately reducing/smothering musical life »
 
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I'm concerned about the recent actions taken by UpTone Audio in publicly criticizing another manufacturer's product in this discussion forum. Sharing internal pictures and labeling components as "cheap" without considering the product's overall performance.

If you, as a customer, believe it's important to share pictures of devices you've opened to demonstrate how they produce bad sound, I see no reason to stop you. However, when manufacturers engage in this practice, it crosses a line, even more when they avoid discussing the sonic performance of a device that has already been judged by buyers as having good sound quality.

But let’s move on and compare the candidates for best audiophile switch with the internals exposed!

I wish to be clear about a few things:
a) My intent in posting about the design/circuits/construction/pricing of other manufacturers' products is never intended to, as you state, "demonstrate how they produce bad sound." People hear what they hear and like what they like and that's 100% fine.

Yet I have assumed that users spending a great deal of money on equipment have both a right and an interest in learning about these products. That interest can be served either by discussion of theory of operation and technical issues related to (Ethernet in this case) the process, or by an examination of various techniques and implementations employed.

I apologize if such examinations have sometimes lead to me being critical of numerous manufacturers utilizing stock sub-$20 Ethernet switch boards rather than putting in the work to develop something innovative of their own. Such may be fine: It is somewhat common across the audio world for some manufacturers to put all their design efforts into a technology and technique that they deem most important, while discounting the importance of other things.
Ansuz is but one example of that in that virtually all of what you see in their products is application of their somewhat mysterious power supply techniques (their published explanations of their "Tesla coils" and use of zirconium do not make much sense to us, but that's okay).
Reiki (Nigel B. here at WFF) is another example as it appears he too uses a stock switch and puts all his efforts into an elaborate multi-layer noise shielding case (and he unsolders the LEDs--also for "noise" reasons though the truth is that LEDs are VERY low noise, even frequently used as voltage references; if they are causing noise on a board it is because the design is driving them with a PWM power regulator!)

We prefer to take a balanced approach in design and to actually develop our own data handling isolation and reclocking systems to deal with what we measure to be the root causes of propagation of "pollution" ("noise" is too much of a generic catch-all word for me) in packet data interfaces, namely ground-plane noise (caused by both leakage currents and chip-generated phase-noise) that gets into the DAC and causes what we coined as "audio clock-threshold jitter"--really just the low-and-high frequency bouncing of the ground-plane that the DAC's master clock is referenced to).

b) UpTone has never taken photos of the internals of other manufacturers' products! Every photo that I have posted of someone's product was found on the internet. They are often from magazine reviews or the manufacturer's own web site. Sometimes they are photos that owners of the products have taken themselves and posted somewhere.

The internet--and audio forums--natch, is awash in misinformation and conjecture. It is in my nature to openly share knowledge and ideas. I'm 62 and been an audiophile/music lover since I was 12, and in the business since I was 20.
Yet I do recognize that as a competing manufacturer my comments about other products can be construed as nefarious and crossing an ethical line of propriety. (People who know me know that I am the most opposite of devious, and that I have no need or want to give the "hard sell" to what we do. :))
I admit that to this being a personal conundrum. I promise to be more mindful of this, especially in forum topics where folks are less interested in engineering factors and simply want to discuss the SQ of the products they are trying.

Thank you all for your forbearance.
I will try to leave you in peace.. :cool:

Ansuz, although it might prove to be something entirely different, seem to be incorporating (among other things) some kind of "dither" technology in some of their TOTL Power switches.
Whatever they are doing with "dither," it is entirely done in the DC power supply of their switch--and has nothing at all to do with the Ethernet data.
When you look at their units, you see that all of their "Tesla coil", "Tesla squares" and "dither" chip stuff is entirely for the creation of the DC power feed to the D-Link DGS-108 switch they use.
 
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Have you tried fiber optic cable? There is no ethernet connection from the network side to my audio system, just 15m of singlemode fiber.
Fiber is perfect in theory and very good in practice. Why the difference? Well optical-electrical conversion (the SFP) generates its own noise in the process.
The very best sonic results I've found are from an optical bridge/break followed by a switch. Whatever the sonic cost of the (downstream in particular) optical-electrical conversion process, an optical connection is superb at doing the RFI-noise-reduction heavy lifting, but a switch installed after this will do a fabulous job of sweeping up the hopefully small amount of noise it receives alongside the input signal. Obviously the results will vary across brands and models of all the components involved, but as a general principle (and one confirmed in listening tests), the combination of optical and a switch can be sublime.
 
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By the way, for those interested, I just now posted a photo of our latest development board here:
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...ng-on-page-92/?do=findComment&comment=1287335
This is NOT an EtherREGEN as it does not contain any of new differential clock circuits, the high-speed differential isolators, nor our special 10GHz-capable ultra-low-jitter reclocking flip-flops. And the port compliment is not complete. This is just our next round of test board to make some technical and sonic decisions with (including audition and measurement of two different PHY chip candidates).
Such a long road. But that's what it takes... :cool:
 
I tend to believe Emile is right about this and cascaded switches might be introducing a kind of "dithering" effect.
Ansuz, although it might prove to be something entirely different, seem to be incorporating (among other things) some kind of "dither" technology in some of their TOTL Power switches.
If we think carefully about the cascading idea, the worse the switch, the more beneficial cascading will be! I'm sure folk could get a pretty impressive sound-per-pound (hey, I'm a Brit) upgrade by cascading several Netgear/Zyxel/whatever but a single audio-optimised switch may well (should!) outperform.
 
"demonstrate how they produce bad sound."
Thank you for your response. However, I was addressing Audiobomber, a customer rather than a manufacturer. Audiobomber seems convinced that publishing internal details is related to sound quality and I am ok with that.

Alex, as one of your happy customers (JS-2 + eR) I indeed was wondering what your intent was when « posting a reply about the design/circuits/construction/pricing of other manufacturers' products ».
I wouldn't want Ansuz or any other brand to comment on my JS-2 or eR in a similar context. Your comment below, including the images, seemed out of place, towards users (and you did apologize) and competitors. But I have a clearer understanding now. While I don't regret making my remark, I do apologize for the space it took up here. That's all I had to sell; at least I tried to be as brief as possible.


After trying several different switches the best by far in my system is my Ansuz Power Switch D2.
Wow, $6,600.
You would think for that kind of money they could build in something better than a $15 Mean Well SMPS and a $1 clock crystal.
Image + image + text not copied
 
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@Superdad Puh, you are very much pushing the limits here in this thread.
I think it has been more than obviously expressed by users how they perceive your inappropriate posts about other manufacturers and doing promotion for UpTone here.
It is sad to see you are still doing that :-(
Again arguing against the approach of Ansuz and implying things you even can't tell as you have neither insights into their tech or how they are doing this nor have you been listening to these products at all and have no first hand experience about the achieved sound quality.
Also the sideswipe against Reiki is also unnecessary - and trying to lay out UpTone is the only one having the right, holistic approach.
Followed up by another promotion post with link to your sponsored Forum channel over on AudiophileStyle.

As you mentioned, you are 62 years old and I guess have come along way in your life already. I guess you really have no need to hijack forum threads to persistly promote UpTones messages. Even though I understand it's a hard time to keep postponing the launch of your ER2 for over 2 years now, please keep this thread & forum as it should be. You are anyway free to do whatever you want in your sponsored forum.
 
@Superdad
As you mentioned, you are 62 years old and I guess have come along way in your life already. I guess you really have no need to hijack forum threads to persistly promote UpTones messages. Even though I understand it's a hard time to keep postponing the launch of your ER2 for over 2 years now, please keep this thread & forum as it should be. You are anyway free to do whatever you want in your sponsored forum.

Thank you Jason. And I apologize to all here.
—Alex C.
 
@Superdad Puh, you are very much pushing the limits here in this thread.
I think it has been more than obviously expressed by users how they perceive your inappropriate posts about other manufacturers and doing promotion for UpTone here.
It is sad to see you are still doing that :-(
Again arguing against the approach of Ansuz and implying things you even can't tell as you have neither insights into their tech or how they are doing this nor have you been listening to these products at all and have no first hand experience about the achieved sound quality.
Also the sideswipe against Reiki is also unnecessary - and trying to lay out UpTone is the only one having the right, holistic approach.
Followed up by another promotion post with link to your sponsored Forum channel over on AudiophileStyle.

As you mentioned, you are 62 years old and I guess have come along way in your life already. I guess you really have no need to hijack forum threads to persistly promote UpTones messages. Even though I understand it's a hard time to keep postponing the launch of your ER2 for over 2 years now, please keep this thread & forum as it should be. You are anyway free to do whatever you want in your sponsored forum.
Are you a moderator? Do you speak for WBF? Because you certainly don't speak for me.

Reiki (owner? designer?) is here. Surely he can step up and defend his design?
 
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Are you a moderator? Do you speak for WBF? Because you certainly don't speak for me.

Reiki (owner? designer?) is here. Surely he can step up and defend his design?
I am not a moderator either but I think the issue has been settled, and apologies have been made. Please let's not prolong this matter in the interest of focusing on the original topic. Let's move on to discussing the best audiophile switch options, as you mentioned some interesting candidates earlier. Thanks for your input and understanding.✌️

Perhaps one day, there will only be integrated solutions with a switch, all combined, as seen in the XACT S1. Until then, we have no choice but to compare separate components: a router/switch, network transport, and a music server. I look forward to seeing what comes next here.IMG_0352.jpeg
 
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Whatever they are doing with "dither," it is entirely done in the DC power supply of their switch--and has nothing at all to do with the Ethernet data.
When you look at their units, you see that all of their "Tesla coil", "Tesla squares" and "dither" chip stuff is entirely for the creation of the DC power feed to the D-Link DGS-108 switch they use.
Yes exactly, that's why dither was used in brackets...;)
BTW, thank you for your contribution in this thread. Not that the verbal part was in any way lacking, but the "visual" part alone was most illuminating...:)
 
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If we think carefully about the cascading idea, the worse the switch, the more beneficial cascading will be! I'm sure folk could get a pretty impressive sound-per-pound (hey, I'm a Brit) upgrade by cascading several Netgear/Zyxel/whatever but a single audio-optimised switch may well (should!) outperform.
Indeed. However, one of the first (if not the first) proponents of cascading was SOtM, the manufacturer of the audio-optimised sNH-10G switch.
 
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Fiber is perfect in theory and very good in practice. Why the difference? Well optical-electrical conversion (the SFP) generates its own noise in the process.
The very best sonic results I've found are from an optical bridge/break followed by a switch.
That is actually how an EtherRegen works. There are two switches in the box, isolated from each other by the moat. The A-side allows an optical connection, the B-side (streamer side) is RJ45.
Whatever the sonic cost of the (downstream in particular) optical-electrical conversion process, an optical connection is superb at doing the RFI-noise-reduction heavy lifting, but a switch installed after this will do a fabulous job of sweeping up the hopefully small amount of noise it receives alongside the input signal. Obviously the results will vary across brands and models of all the components involved, but as a general principle (and one confirmed in listening tests), the combination of optical and a switch can be sublime.
My experiments with ethernet vs. optical were conclusive in favour of optical. I tried three different 15 meter ethernet cables from a Silent Angel Bonn N8 to the EtherRegen A-side; generic CAT6, Yauhody CAT8 and Audio Sensibility Supra+ (cryogenically treated Supra CAT8 with Telegartner connectors). The CAT8 cables were tested with and without a LAN Filter.

When compared with my original fiber optic setup, TP-Link MC220L/iPower X, Corning single-mode fiber and Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL SFPs, all of the ethernet cables were shown to be coloured and lacking in microdetail. My current system, with the optical Module Deluxe/Pardo MiniTeddy replacing the MC220/iPower, is far and away more resolving.
 
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is far and away more resolving.
To clarify, replacing the TP-Link MC220L/iPower X combo with the Optical Module Deluxe/MiniTeddy resulted in an improvement in the same direction the former had improved—less coloration and more microdetail.

Is it possible that with the latter there was also an improvement in any other direction, like soundstage depth and realism, space, better deep bass maybe? Or not significant?

I have to ask, what about optimisation of your eR in the more resolving setup:
- was it used in conjunction with the superior B side of the EtherREGEN, which is designed with "moat isolation” and is it (or not):
- clocked (did you try?)
- grounded
- also powered by a Teddy Pardo
- only using 2 ports (no other devices connected?)

If shared before and I missed that a link will do instead of repeating,
Thanks
 

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