Best audiophile switch

[Synaxis]

The IT guys take it for granted and assume it's all just "ones and zeros," but those don't actually exist. Its multiple levels of multiple tiny voltages, encoded in complex bi-directional ways, all embedded in a sea of noisy bursts.

I can't tell you the number of times I've quoted and credited you guys with this and linked to your paper, and the amount of incredulity I encounter from people.

It's like they literally don't care about facts and just want to stick to the "earth-is-flat" mentality and truth be damned.

That's why I've stopped trying to even hold a rudimentary conversation with any of them. I just accept it's a lost cause and ignore.

 

[kennyb123]

But the most hateful and vitriolic messages are usually either from IT professionals, AV home theater employees who are just glorified IT people, and sound engineers. I mean they are literally triggered beyond comprehension. And then they post in their groups to get other similar thinkers to post against what they don't like as well. They are like a group of 11 year olds.

When there is no evidence of humility and their behavior is both toxic and immature, odds are that you are dealing with a person who has a personality disorder. Narcissists are attracted to this topic (and, even more so, audiophile cables) as it gives them the ability to feel superior by diminishing other (grandiosity).

That's why I've stopped trying to even hold a rudimentary conversation with any of them. I just accept it's a lost cause and ignore.

Exactly the right thing to do. Have a skim through this as recognizing these tactics can give you insight into how worthwhile it would be try to engage further with someone. Anyone who has engaged with an internet troll has seen some of these tactics used.

 

[sbnx]

I am going to say somthing here that is likely going to ruffle some feathers. I don't want to ruffle feathers but rather ask that people simply think about what I am saying. There is no ill intention. This is not directed at any specific person but rather an overall thing that I observe.

Many of the devices we as audiophiles play with are in reality pushing noise around. Some lower the overall noise. Some move the noise. Some will actually increase noise.

I believe all noise is bad and should be eliminated. I am not sure if I asked 100 audiophiles if they wanted more noise in their system if any one of them would say "Well now that you mention it, I would like more noise." I believe that once someone gets on a path of consisten noise reduction and realizes the damage that noise is doing to their music they will not want to go backward.

Switches are something that strongly modulates noise. There are certainly people who don't accept this and think it is all just 1's and 0's and that noise doesn't matter at all. I say more power to them. It is better for them if they turn a blind eye and enjoy what they have. Otherwise, the rabbit hole is very, very deep. But they should not throw rocks at other people. Demonstrating that a switch has an audible impact is very, very easy to do.

I would prefer a switch that had ZERO noise. So to that end, I don't believe that what works in one system doesn't work in another system. We should strive for the lowest noise floor we can achieve. Now maybe the cost starts to go up as the noise floor goes down. But not always. As I have said earlier I have found that some switches are definitely quieter than other switches and this doesn't necessarily correlate with price. This makes it unfortunate as it is difficult to compare a bunch of switches in your system and evaluate what each one is doing and which one has the lowest noise floor.

Noise shifts the overall tonal balance up. You can not measure this with REW but it is very easy to hear. If I drop in a switch (or other device) that radically lowers my overall noise floor then I will have to adjust the speaker position slightly to compensate for this. This can lead someone to believe that a product is bad for them when it is actually good. When someone drops in the hypothetical perfect, zero noise switch it will lower the overall noise floor so much that they may think it actually made their sound bad. (How can this be? It is the perfect zero noise switch?) It may sound dull or lack dynamics or bass impact or ... . But all of this is fixable with a slight adjustment to the speakers. Then you get what you had before the low noise switch plus interest.

All I ask is that you take a deep breath before you turn on the flame thrower.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

I am going to say somthing here that is likely going to ruffle some feathers. I don't want to ruffle feathers but rather ask that people simply think about what I am saying. There is no ill intention. This is not directed at any specific person but rather an overall thing that I observe.

Many of the devices we as audiophiles play with are in reality pushing noise around. Some lower the overall noise. Some move the noise. Some will actually increase noise.

I believe all noise is bad and should be eliminated. I am not sure if I asked 100 audiophiles if they wanted more noise in their system if any one of them would say "Well now that you mention it, I would like more noise." I believe that once someone gets on a path of consistent noise reduction and realizes the damage that noise is doing to their music they will not want to go backward.

Switches are something that strongly modulates noise. There are certainly people who don't accept this and think it is all just 1's and 0's and that noise doesn't matter at all. I say more power to them. It is better for them if they turn a blind eye and enjoy what they have. Otherwise, the rabbit hole is very, very deep. But they should not throw rocks at other people. Demonstrating that a switch has an audible impact is very, very easy to do.

I would prefer a switch that had ZERO noise. So to that end, I don't believe that what works in one system doesn't work in another system. We should strive for the lowest noise floor we can achieve. Now maybe the cost starts to go up as the noise floor goes down. But not always. As I have said earlier I have found that some switches are definitely quieter than other switches and this doesn't necessarily correlate with price. This makes it unfortunate as it is difficult to compare a bunch of switches in your system and evaluate what each one is doing and which one has the lowest noise floor.

Noise shifts the overall tonal balance up. You can not measure this with REW but it is very easy to hear. If I drop in a switch (or other device) that radically lowers my overall noise floor then I will have to adjust the speaker position slightly to compensate for this. This can lead someone to believe that a product is bad for them when it is actually good. When someone drops in the hypothetical perfect, zero noise switch it will lower the overall noise floor so much that they may think it actually made their sound bad. (How can this be? It is the perfect zero noise switch?) It may sound dull or lack dynamics or bass impact or ... . But all of this is fixable with a slight adjustment to the speakers. Then you get what you had before the low noise switch plus interest.

All I ask is that you take a deep breath before you turn on the flame thrower.

Nailed it.

 

[Tam Lin]

I believe all noise is bad and should be eliminated. I am not sure if I asked 100 audiophiles if they wanted more noise in their system if any one of them would say "Well now that you mention it, I would like more noise." I believe that once someone gets on a path of consisten noise reduction and realizes the damage that noise is doing to their music they will not want to go backward.

As I see it, audiophiles are happy with noise. In fact, the more the better. That's why they love DSD.

I've developed a technique that removes dither noise from CD audio that I've presented in four audio forums. The reaction, here on WBF and another forum is (crickets). On the other two, hostility. "You can't do that!"

OK, I can't do that (but I do). I have nothing to gain by arguing with them. As my pappy told me, "You can't win arguing with a fool."
If you missed it: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/uds-removes-cd-dither-noise.39016

NB. The method will not work with a delta-sigma DAC. It's counter-productive to remove dither noise and then add even more noise with a delta-sigma modulator. "But, but, D-S noise is inaudible!" That's what they say about dither noise and digital network noise.

 

[adamaley]

Yeah, like in all things audio, everyone has their thesis on whether something makes a difference. That's not the title of the thread though. No need to decrease the signal to noise ratio here either.

 

[sbnx]

As I see it, audiophiles are happy with noise. In fact, the more the better. That's why they love DSD.

I've developed a technique that removes dither noise from CD audio that I've presented in four audio forums. The reaction, here on WBF and another forum is (crickets). On the other two, hostility. "You can't do that!"

OK, I can't do that (but I do). I have nothing to gain by arguing with them. As my pappy told me, "You can't win arguing with a fool."
If you missed it: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/uds-removes-cd-dither-noise.39016

NB. The method will not work with a delta-sigma DAC. It's counter-productive to remove dither noise and then add even more noise with a delta-sigma modulator. "But, but, D-S noise is inaudible!" That's what they say about dither noise and digital network noise.

See my comments on your link.

 

[sparkie]

Sorry, but you have no idea how a good switch can improve and impact a good system.

I know how much it improves on a computing network that you sharing the bandwidth. Because basically, the Vlan that is establish doesn't rely on the router as the packet clock master. So it doesn't rely on the router traffic arbitration and uses the switch instead. I used to run streaming and even played with Linux subsystem to connect a Linux computer with a USB interface in another room and mount it as an ALSA device on the Linux Server. So I have dealt with these streaming technologies before and their demands.

 

[sparkie]

He appears to be an "I.T." type of mind set - the kind that probably lives, eats and breaths everything Microsoft.

Actually, I'm a Linux enthusiast that has been a user since 1997. I primarily run Macs in the studio, but I do have PCs, but I run a desktop instance of windows server instead of their junk consumer OS and Protools runs better on that than the mac mini does at 192K. Wish that they would make a Linux version of Protools because the offerings are very limited on Linux. But the next upgrade for my music server is a Linux compatible Dante Card and sticking the web server instance on that machine, since I used PHP CLI player commands, its going to be an easy port/upgrade.

Most of my computers are Linux machines if you want to know. Even the one I'm using to type this post with is Ubuntu Studio that when its not on the internet, its used as my photoshop/office/graphics drawing computer. So I really don't understand the stereo typing as me being a Microsoft nerd.

 

[sparkie]

Yeah, like in all things audio, everyone has their thesis on whether something makes a difference. That's not the title of the thread though. No need to decrease the signal to noise ratio here either.

Its dependent on the network clock being stable and jitter free with low latency connections. Just like any binary bridge streaming technology.

 

[luca.pelliccioli]

Actually, I'm a Linux enthusiast that has been a user since 1997. I primarily run Macs in the studio, but I do have PCs, but I run a desktop instance of windows server instead of their junk consumer OS and Protools runs better on that than the mac mini does at 192K. Wish that they would make a Linux version of Protools because the offerings are very limited on Linux. But the next upgrade for my music server is a Linux compatible Dante Card and sticking the web server instance on that machine, since I used PHP CLI player commands, its going to be an easy port/upgrade.

Most of my computers are Linux machines if you want to know. Even the one I'm using to type this post with is Ubuntu Studio that when its not on the internet, its used as my photoshop/office/graphics drawing computer. So I really don't understand the stereo typing as me being a Microsoft nerd.

Which sonic attributes do you prefer and what kind of audio components, in your system/journey, best suited these sonic tastes, regardless of analog or digital rig?

 

[NigelB]

My network is multiple networks. The music server , I run a AMD Athlon II (that replaced an Intel pentium4) with 10G and 1G multi-port network cards on a 2005 Dell inspiron (with pfsense currently) as the router. The switches are non-green unmanaged switches I bought at walmart for like $10. Never had issues streaming when I used that network only and back then all I had in the router was two 1G x 4 intel network cards and was suprised the intel 10G card worked on the Dell.

I reprogrammed my server when I upgraded last so it would play the track on the server machine and out on a Dante Network by DVS (on two 1G ports) then into two Yamaha SWR2100P-5G that runs to three rooms that have focusrite AM2 (that were upgraded from Dante AV adapters) and one that goes into the studio that has another cheap switch to four Focusrite RedNet 16X16 and a RME Digiface Dante. With the network set at 192K and my master clock is the RME. So far I haven't had issues.

I know I run different hardware and systems than you guys have, but if I can do 48x56 of i/o on 64x64 @192K with cheap switches why do you guys have issues with simple stereo streaming? The only reason I have the Yamaha switches is because I bought them as a package with the three Focusrite AM2, otherwise I would just use some cheap POE switches.

Maybe its wiring or just bad install planning? I really don't understand why some have issues.

You're completely missing the point about why so many audio enthusiasts use a switch or an optical link in their systems; it's nothing to do with the digital signal arriving at its destination (the streamer) uncorrupted. Most of us seek to minimise the amount of RFI noise reaching the analog(ue) components further downstream where this becomes audible.

To do this, a switch must be installed just before the streamer. You can have as many switches as you like elsewhere in your network but their primarty purpose is usually to give additional ports and/or to act as a signal relay if you happen to live in a mansion and have unusually long wires.

You might not recognise you have issues in your own network because I suspect you don't have your switches installed physically where they will have the greatest impact in reducing RFI noise.

Your nearest switch to your streamer: how far from the streamer is it? What make and model is that streamer?

 

[gionaz]

I am going to say somthing here that is likely going to ruffle some feathers. I don't want to ruffle feathers but rather ask that people simply think about what I am saying. There is no ill intention. This is not directed at any specific person but rather an overall thing that I observe.

Many of the devices we as audiophiles play with are in reality pushing noise around. Some lower the overall noise. Some move the noise. Some will actually increase noise.

I believe all noise is bad and should be eliminated. I am not sure if I asked 100 audiophiles if they wanted more noise in their system if any one of them would say "Well now that you mention it, I would like more noise." I believe that once someone gets on a path of consisten noise reduction and realizes the damage that noise is doing to their music they will not want to go backward.

Switches are something that strongly modulates noise. There are certainly people who don't accept this and think it is all just 1's and 0's and that noise doesn't matter at all. I say more power to them. It is better for them if they turn a blind eye and enjoy what they have. Otherwise, the rabbit hole is very, very deep. But they should not throw rocks at other people. Demonstrating that a switch has an audible impact is very, very easy to do.

I would prefer a switch that had ZERO noise. So to that end, I don't believe that what works in one system doesn't work in another system. We should strive for the lowest noise floor we can achieve. Now maybe the cost starts to go up as the noise floor goes down. But not always. As I have said earlier I have found that some switches are definitely quieter than other switches and this doesn't necessarily correlate with price. This makes it unfortunate as it is difficult to compare a bunch of switches in your system and evaluate what each one is doing and which one has the lowest noise floor.

Noise shifts the overall tonal balance up. You can not measure this with REW but it is very easy to hear. If I drop in a switch (or other device) that radically lowers my overall noise floor then I will have to adjust the speaker position slightly to compensate for this. This can lead someone to believe that a product is bad for them when it is actually good. When someone drops in the hypothetical perfect, zero noise switch it will lower the overall noise floor so much that they may think it actually made their sound bad. (How can this be? It is the perfect zero noise switch?) It may sound dull or lack dynamics or bass impact or ... . But all of this is fixable with a slight adjustment to the speakers. Then you get what you had before the low noise switch plus interest.

All I ask is that you take a deep breath before you turn on the flame thrower.

general discourse but which can fit more into the analogue world of signals proper, on digital (it's still analogue transmission, OK) I think less noise is always better!

 

[NigelB]

I've just noticed a bit of "IT guy" discussions up-thread. I've found the same; that because they live and breathe the digital signal they tend to view everything relating to networks through a pair of digital spectacles, and the vast majority struggle to conceive of anything which the digital spectacles filter out. Like RFI noise for example.

For the record though, I'm an IT guy too, have been for decades! And, unusually perhaps, I think it helps me here. It helps me to distinguish the stuff which can make a difference from the stuff which can't, and to focus on addressing those that can. It also helps me identify and call out for what they are, invalid extrapolations from the synchronous streamer-onwards world of bit streams to the asynchronous pre-streamer world of ethernet data frames/packets. Not all IT guys are the same then, but it's a wholly understandable generalisation.

 

[Synaxis]

Actually, I'm a Linux enthusiast that has been a user since 1997. I primarily run Macs in the studio, but I do have PCs, but I run a desktop instance of windows server instead of their junk consumer OS and Protools runs better on that than the mac mini does at 192K. Wish that they would make a Linux version of Protools because the offerings are very limited on Linux. But the next upgrade for my music server is a Linux compatible Dante Card and sticking the web server instance on that machine, since I used PHP CLI player commands, its going to be an easy port/upgrade.

Most of my computers are Linux machines if you want to know. Even the one I'm using to type this post with is Ubuntu Studio that when its not on the internet, its used as my photoshop/office/graphics drawing computer. So I really don't understand the stereo typing as me being a Microsoft nerd.

Thank you. But your post literally just proved my point about being an I.T. type. Again - that is not an insult nor a negative. It's a mindset that is incompatible with a very subjective hobby with those who trust their ears and not their eyes.

I'm not saying which way is right or wrong, only that they are polar opposites in every way as usually the eyes/measurement type just can't understand the "ear" people and are convinced of their superiority.

In no way is your way of enjoying the hobby wrong or "worse" than any other. In fact I think you guys have it much easier than those who rely on their ears as you can shop simply by spec.

 

[luca.pelliccioli]

You can cook by scrupulously following a recipe (precise temperature and cooking times) and selecting ingredients based on the label (specs). Yes, you can nourish your body perfectly this way. But to nourish your soul, you need taste, that comes also from direct experience, imagination, passion for food and the desire to share that pleasure with others. Said by an Italian!

A switch can be a pinch of salt, so to speak. QB (quantum sufficit or to taste) is the measure!

 

[gionaz]

I've just noticed a bit of "IT guy" discussions up-thread. I've found the same; that because they live and breathe the digital signal they tend to view everything relating to networks through a pair of digital spectacles, and the vast majority struggle to conceive of anything which the digital spectacles filter out. Like RFI noise for example.

For the record though, I'm an IT guy too, have been for decades! And, unusually perhaps, I think it helps me here. It helps me to distinguish the stuff which can make a difference from the stuff which can't, and to focus on addressing those that can. It also helps me identify and call out for what they are, invalid extrapolations from the synchronous streamer-onwards world of bit streams to the asynchronous pre-streamer world of ethernet data frames/packets. Not all IT guys are the same then, but it's a wholly understandable generalisation.

and if I had to summarise (with a little insight) what they are... versus what they are not?

 

[sparkie]

You're completely missing the point about why so many audio enthusiasts use a switch or an optical link in their systems; it's nothing to do with the digital signal arriving at its destination (the streamer) uncorrupted. Most of us seek to minimise the amount of RFI noise reaching the analog(ue) components further downstream where this becomes audible.

To do this, a switch must be installed just before the streamer. You can have as many switches as you like elsewhere in your network but their primarty purpose is usually to give additional ports and/or to act as a signal relay if you happen to live in a mansion and have unusually long wires.

You might not recognise you have issues in your own network because I suspect you don't have your switches installed physically where they will have the greatest impact in reducing RFI noise.

Your nearest switch to your streamer: how far from the streamer is it? What make and model is that streamer?

RFI is not an issue with Dante Networking. That is why its used in studio and commercial audio environments in the first place. Before 2009, I did run a streamer style system, but never noticed any glitches or RFI when I did so. The network planning I did myself and when my husband did collaborated work for a major recording label 1500 miles away, their IT guy did a once over on the system as well as the home network. Which the only changes they did was add a fiber run to where the home network equipment is, so it would connect to their router/gateway server they brought in to tie the studios together (don't ask me how they did that, but it was quite interesting seeing my Dante map of 128 X 128 channels go to a 2048 X 2048 routing matrix when they were connected). Their IT Guy was impressed that I created a router/gateway server with an old computer running Linux as well as the music server I made that later was incorporated as a device on the Dante networks. The hallway closet that houses the music server as well as the Dante switches is pretty centrally located and the longest run is about 175 feet. Before the Dante upgrade, Balanced XLR runs were installed and distributed the audio to the rooms with an RME USB interface and before that, I had point to multi point streaming over the home network with seperate computers with home recording interfaces that I upgraded so all of that wasn't running on the home network and bogging down the internet connections. I repurosed a PC as a gateway/router when I was point to multi point streaming because I couldn't buy a router that could do the job without jitter and packet dropouts. Which I imagine that is why the audiophile solutions are to use a switch and the moderen computer networking formats (RSTP or MSTP) instead of the legacy one I have established (STP). I decided to go a different route to ditch the computers in the rooms.
The music server went though different evolutions and OS systems on the repurposed PC, but I created it with its own internal web server using PHP/HTML/Mysql running Linux but had to switch to MS Windows Server because Audinate's Dante virtual sound card and my web server program, I didn't have to modify significantly since Apache Web Server runs on both OS systems. All I had to do was update my PHP command line calls it did in the background. My professional background is audio electronics and I am a Linux enthusiest. So I know a great deal of how to get rid of and keep out RFI and make noise floors disappear in audio equipment. If you want to know, my noise floor on the Dante system is -148 dbfs. I don't think I can get that any better than that.
Its very technically advanced system and way more advanced than what the audiophile and the home audio sector came up with. Most of the analog audio I built myself: Tube preamps and amplifiers because I know how to design and build them and of course, even the signal paths in the tube stages are fully ballanced. My phono preamp is the only thing I have that has an RCA connection. I know other people have to spend thousands of dollars to even get near the same quality of tube gear I created. But it does cost a small chunk of change to create them in the first place.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

You can cook by scrupulously following a recipe (precise temperature and cooking times) and selecting ingredients based on the label (specs). Yes, you can nourish your body perfectly this way. But to nourish your soul, you need taste, that comes also from direct experience, imagination, passion for food and the desire to share that pleasure with others. Said by an Italian!

A switch can be a pinch of salt, so to speak. QB (quantum sufficit or to taste) is the measure!

Luca I love this post, BTW I never follow the recipe

 

[Republicoftexas69]

RFI is not an issue with Dante Networking. That is why its used in studio and commercial audio environments in the first place. Before 2009, I did run a streamer style system, but never noticed any glitches or RFI when I did so. The network planning I did myself and when my husband did collaborated work for a major recording label 1500 miles away, their IT guy did a once over on the system as well as the home network. Which the only changes they did was add a fiber run to where the home network equipment is, so it would connect to their router/gateway server they brought in to tie the studios together (don't ask me how they did that, but it was quite interesting seeing my Dante map of 128 X 128 channels go to a 2048 X 2048 routing matrix when they were connected). Their IT Guy was impressed that I created a router/gateway server with an old computer running Linux as well as the music server I made that later was incorporated as a device on the Dante networks. The hallway closet that houses the music server as well as the Dante switches is pretty centrally located and the longest run is about 175 feet. Before the Dante upgrade, Balanced XLR runs were installed and distributed the audio to the rooms with an RME USB interface and before that, I had point to multi point streaming over the home network with seperate computers with home recording interfaces that I upgraded so all of that wasn't running on the home network and bogging down the internet connections. I repurosed a PC as a gateway/router when I was point to multi point streaming because I couldn't buy a router that could do the job without jitter and packet dropouts. Which I imagine that is why the audiophile solutions are to use a switch and the moderen computer networking formats (RSTP or MSTP) instead of the legacy one I have established (STP). I decided to go a different route to ditch the computers in the rooms.
The music server went though different evolutions and OS systems on the repurposed PC, but I created it with its own internal web server using PHP/HTML/Mysql running Linux but had to switch to MS Windows Server because Audinate's Dante virtual sound card and my web server program, I didn't have to modify significantly since Apache Web Server runs on both OS systems. All I had to do was update my PHP command line calls it did in the background. My professional background is audio electronics and I am a Linux enthusiest. So I know a great deal of how to get rid of and keep out RFI and make noise floors disappear in audio equipment. If you want to know, my noise floor on the Dante system is -148 dbfs. I don't think I can get that any better than that.
Its very technically advanced system and way more advanced than what the audiophile and the home audio sector came up with. Most of the analog audio I built myself: Tube preamps and amplifiers because I know how to design and build them and of course, even the signal paths in the tube stages are fully ballanced. My phono preamp is the only thing I have that has an RCA connection. I know other people have to spend thousands of dollars to even get near the same quality of tube gear I created. But it does cost a small chunk of change to create them in the first place.

I had to look it up. https://asia-latinamerica-mea.yamah...dante_network_design_guide/201_multicast.html