Best turntable under 50k?

[Balle Clorin]

The key word here is a “few”. You have to investigate and measure and listen carefully to get yours money worth. I would not mind a Tecnics 1000R or a Reed top model and one other secret candidate if I could afford. But several others supposedly high ends are just Hifi jewellery , with nothing noteworthy performance wise , in fact some are poorly performing.

 

[Salectric]

I have never heard a $50K or more turntable in my system so I can’t comment on that price level, but I can say that moving from my TD-124 and VPI HW-19 Mk 3 to a Galibier Gavia was a categorical, qualitative improvement. Tonearms sound different for sure, as do cartridges, stepups and cables, but switching to the Galibier was something different. It wasn’t an incremental change or just a change in tonal balance, detail or dynamics. It opened a new dimension in sound for records that I thought I knew so well. The dramatic reduction in noise floor, the new levels of subtle detail and micro-dynamics as well as the explosive dynamics at the other end, were simply things I had never experienced before with my records.

That experience, now 20 years ago, convinced me that the turntable may actually be the most important element in the phono playback system. If I had to compromise somewhere, I would rather do so with the tonearm or cartridge rather than the table. So would a $100K table or $350K table be another qualitative improvement over my Galibier? For me it’s a moot point since such a table is beyond my budget, but I certainly wouldn’t rule it out.

 

[SoundMann]

switching to the Galibier was something different. It wasn’t an incremental change or just a change in tonal balance, detail or dynamics. It opened a new dimension in sound for records that I thought I knew so well. The dramatic reduction in noise floor, the new levels of subtle detail and micro-dynamics as well as the explosive dynamics at the other end, were simply things I had never experienced before with my records.

I have certainly heard this for myself when I began using top level Micro Seiki turntables. But upgrading from a Grace to a Micro Seiki tonearm on my more humble BL-51 has given me a similar leap of improvement, although a smaller one but still an eye opener.

 

[mtemur]

But several others supposedly high ends are just Hifi jewellery , with nothing noteworthy performance wise , in fact some are poorly performing.

How many turntables priced at or around $50,000 have you owned? How many turntables around $50,000, either owned by you or a friend, have you set up, listened to for many hours, and compared side by side with another turntable? Just because you can’t afford them doesn’t mean they are unnecessary or redundant.

 

[PeterA]

I have never heard a $50K or more turntable in my system so I can’t comment on that price level, but I can say that moving from my TD-124 and VPI HW-19 Mk 3 to a Galibier Gavia was a categorical, qualitative improvement. Tonearms sound different for sure, as do cartridges, stepups and cables, but switching to the Galibier was something different. It wasn’t an incremental change or just a change in tonal balance, detail or dynamics. It opened a new dimension in sound for records that I thought I knew so well. The dramatic reduction in noise floor, the new levels of subtle detail and micro-dynamics as well as the explosive dynamics at the other end, were simply things I had never experienced before with my records.

That experience, now 20 years ago, convinced me that the turntable may actually be the most important element in the phono playback system. If I had to compromise somewhere, I would rather do so with the tonearm or cartridge rather than the table. So would a $100K table or $350K table be another qualitative improvement over my Galibier? For me it’s a moot point since such a table is beyond my budget, but I certainly wouldn’t rule it out.

What I hear with the best high mass string drive air supported tables is a sense of calm and ease. Instruments have mass and more nuance and ambience to the presentation. All this adds up to a greater sense of immediacy and presence in the room.

The improvements are more subtle than the gains in dynamics and resolution and differences in tonal balance that you get from different tone arms and cartridges. Turntable improvements are different in nature. They come at a cost, but depending on what one values in a presentation, they can be more meaningful to the overall listening experience and you can’t get there with just better tonearms, and cartridges.

EDIT: the other important improvement with these more massive turntables is the sense of energy presented in the room with less restriction. The result is more immediacy and a sound that is more alive. The listening experience is more real.

 

[Tangram]

I have never heard a $50K or more turntable in my system so I can’t comment on that price level, but I can say that moving from my TD-124 and VPI HW-19 Mk 3 to a Galibier Gavia was a categorical, qualitative improvement. Tonearms sound different for sure, as do cartridges, stepups and cables, but switching to the Galibier was something different. It wasn’t an incremental change or just a change in tonal balance, detail or dynamics. It opened a new dimension in sound for records that I thought I knew so well. The dramatic reduction in noise floor, the new levels of subtle detail and micro-dynamics as well as the explosive dynamics at the other end, were simply things I had never experienced before with my records.

That experience, now 20 years ago, convinced me that the turntable may actually be the most important element in the phono playback system. If I had to compromise somewhere, I would rather do so with the tonearm or cartridge rather than the table. So would a $100K table or $350K table be another qualitative improvement over my Galibier? For me it’s a moot point since such a table is beyond my budget, but I certainly wouldn’t rule it out.

Did you use the same tonearm and cartridge on your Galibier as on your Thorens or VPI?

 

[Another Johnson]

How many turntables priced at or around $50,000 have you owned? How many turntables around $50,000, either owned by you or a friend, have you set up, listened to for many hours, and compared side by side with another turntable? Just because you can’t afford them doesn’t mean they are unnecessary or redundant.

Aesop wrote a fable about this … “I can’t get it, so it’s probably not good anyway.” Those grapes are probably sour.

 

[PeterA]

How many turntables priced at or around $50,000 have you owned? How many turntables around $50,000, either owned by you or a friend, have you set up, listened to for many hours, and compared side by side with another turntable? Just because you can’t afford them doesn’t mean they are unnecessary or redundant.

Here is a list of the turntables I have directly compared in my own system after having set them up with same tonearm and cartridge:

SME Model 10 directly compared to SME Model 30/12 both SME V and SME V-12 arms with AirTight Supreme

Technics SP10 Mk 3 (owned by friend) directly compared to SME 30/12 with SME V-12 and AirTight Supreme

Denon Dp-47f compared to SP10 Mk 3, different arm cartridges

Micro Seiki SX8000 II directly compared to SME 30/12 with SME 3012R and vdH Colibri

Micro Seiki SX8000 II directly compared to American Sound AS1000 with SME 3012R and vdH Colibri

American Sound AS1000 directly compared to AS2000 with SME 3012R and vdH Colibri

It is not an extensive list, nor do I have much experience with different tonearms in my own system. What I did learn is that speed accuracy and consistency is not as important as the resonance management of the turntable. All of the turntables listed above have decent speed as measured by the Sutherland Time Line and various strobe disks, and later the Roadrunner tachometer. The direct drives and Micro and American Sound tables have superior speed control compared to the SME with their stretchy belts. With the SME tables, the heavier and better suspended, the better the sound. With the Micro and American Sound tables, the more massive the better, but it all comes at a cost of weight and price.

EDIT: I owned all the turntables except for the Technics SP 10 and the American side AS 1000. I also directly compared to TechDAS Air Force one to an American Sound AS 2000 with multiple arms and cartridges in the same system belonging to a friend. With every iteration, the AS 2000 sounded better - more grounded, more solid, more nuanced with more energy and information. The TechDAS sounded damped and dull in comparison. I would get the TD Air Force three premium over the Air Force One.

I also directly compared the American Sound AS1000 with upgrades to the new American Sound The Absolute Nothing in a very good system with the same arm and cartridge. The latter took the presentation to a completely different level. That turntable is a real achievement but very expensive.

 

[mtemur]

Aesop wrote a fable about this … “I can’t get it, so it’s probably not good anyway.” Those grapes are probably sour.

I know a couple of sayings basically mean the same. BTW I can’t afford a 50K turntable either.

 

[mtemur]

Here is a list of the turntables I have directly compared in my own system after having set them up with same tonearm and cartridge:

SME Model 10 directly compared to SME Model 30/12 both SME V and SME V-12 arms with AirTight Supreme
Technics SP10 Mk 3 (owned by friend) directly compared to SME 30/12 with SME V-12 and AirTight Supreme
Denon Dp-47f compared to SP10 Mk 3, different arm cartridges
Micro Seiki SX8000 II directly compared to SME 30/12 with SME 3012R and vdH Colibri
Micro Seiki SX8000 II directly compared to American Sound AS1000 with SME 3012R and vdH Colibri
American Sound AS1000 directly compared to AS2000 with SME 3012R and vdH Colibri

It is not an extensive list, nor do I have much experience with different tonearms in my own system. What I did learn is that speed accuracy and consistency is not as important as the resonance management of the turntable. All of the turntables listed above have decent speed as measured by the Sutherland Time Line and various strobe disks, and later the Roadrunner tachometer. The direct drives and Micro and American Sound tables have superior speed control compared to the SME with their stretchy belts. With the SME tables, the heavier and better suspended, the better the sound. With the Micro and American Sound tables, the more massive the better, but it all comes at a cost of weight and price.

I like measuring turntables but I don’t solely rely on measurements. There are many other things that affects final sound as you’ve mentioned. A turntable with %0.07 w&f may sound better than another with %0.04 w&f. And I mean w&f in AES standard. IME if you’re measuring at DIN or RMS-weighted divide those numbers by 2 or 3.

 

[Balle Clorin]

How many turntables priced at or around $50,000 have you owned? How many turntables around $50,000, either owned by you or a friend, have you set up, listened to for many hours, and compared side by side with another turntable? Just because you can’t afford them doesn’t mean they are unnecessary or redundant.

I am lucky to have have access to several turntables in the 10k to 150kUSD range. TechDas, Esoteric,Kuzma, EAT,Reed, etc. I have spent days with these turntables,comparing side by side.
I did indeed audition a turntable with 0,8% peak wow(2S) it made both me and my fellow listener seasick….another had 0,4 which is horribly poor and clearly audible on music, it did not help that the turntable price was 40 000 usd..at 0,4% I would demand better.
Get below 0,2% in 2Sigma deviation and you will not notice much on rock music, but sustained piano notes can suffer.

 

[crosswind]

I am lucky to have have access to several turntables in the 10k to 150kUSD range. TechDas, Esoteric,Kuzma, EAT,Reed, etc. I have spent days with these turntables,comparing side by side.
I did indeed audition a turntable with 0,8% peak wow(2S) it made both me end my fellow listener seasick….another had 0,4 which s horribly poor and clearly audible, it did not help that the turntable price was 40 000 usd..at 0,4% I would demand better

Where is this Balle? Curious as to where you have access to all those turntables.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Where is this Balle? Curious as to where you have access to all those turntables.

I am friendly with a high end dealer in Norway, he has more high end turntables than you can dream of.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

Mala across the fjord from Drøbak

 

[crosswind]

I am friendly with a high end dealer in Norway, he has more high end turntables than you can dream of.

So with access, you actually mean you can go to the dealer and listen to them in the store when you have some spare time?

 

[crosswind]

Mala across the fjord from Drøbak

Yep, my thought too…

 

[Salectric]

Did you use the same tonearm and cartridge on your Galibier as on your Thorens or VPI?

Yes. Back then I had a Moerch DP-6 (12”), Schick 12” and VPI JMW-9. I used the Moerch and Schick on the Thorens 124, and I used the VPI arm on the VPI table. I tried all 3 arms on the Galibier. Those arms are all long gone.

 

[Balle Clorin]

So with access, you actually mean you can go to the dealer and listen to them in the store when you have some spare time?

Let's see, it takes about 1 minute to get the speed data for one turntable, listening takes a bit longer,,

Unamed Turntable 1 high-end store



Turntable high end 40 000 usd

Another turntable 41 000usd

Technics 1200G

cheap TT



which one deserves a premium price?

 

[Audiohertz2]

All of them or no sales ....!

 

[crosswind]

Let's see, it takes about 1 minute to get the speed data for one turntable, listening takes a bit longer,,

Unamed Turntable 1 high-end store
View attachment 140650


Turntable high end 40 000 usd
View attachment 140652
Another turntable 41 000usd
View attachment 140653
Technics 1200G
View attachment 140654
cheap TT
View attachment 140656


which one deserves a premium price?

Not really sure why you quoted me showing a bunch of graphs?