Best turntable under 50k?

[PeterA]

Here is a video I made with the Sutherland Timeline strobe to test the speed of my turntable. Note that it is very difficult to get the strobe dashed line to remain stable from a distance across the room. The other videos show the dash at a much closer distance. This result for a belt/thread drive table is outstanding. The platter weighs 150 lbs and has a free spin stop time of 30 minutes from 33.333 RPM (also on video). The platter is supported by a cushion of air, so there is very little friction. Speed is very accurate and stable.

The Technics SP10 Mk3 was about the same while the SME 30/12 was worse. Of course the three turntables all sound very different from each other. I once started a thread asking members to upload videos of their turntables using the TimeLine device for comparisons. The thread died a sudden death. One guy claimed to have taken the device into dealerships to spot check various turntables. He made no friends and was not appreciated. I took it to some friend's houses to test their tables. It is very revealing.

I maintain that speed accuracy and consistency after a certain level is not the main criteria for selecting a turntable.

Here is the Technics:

Here is the SME:

 

[Salectric]

Peter, what is the ideal display for your TimeLine? A stationary dot?

 

[mtemur]

which one deserves a premium price?

Let me tell you which turntable you shared deserves the premium price. It's CD.

No, I changed my mind, it's MiniDisc or any mp3 player. If you're familiar with the specs of those you knew that their W&F listed as "Below measurable limit". A problem like speed variation or simply w&f is nonexistent for them. So, the cheap turntable you shared with better w&f performance is miserable compared to a minidisc or a mp3 player. Does w&f alone make them sound best? Does mp3 player deserves the premium price?

 

[PeterA]

Peter, what is the ideal display for your TimeLine? A stationary dot?

Yes, but that distance would have to be very close to the turntable. The strobe is on for a fraction of a second, and during that time, the dot smears to a line at some distance, the line becoming longer the further away from the spindle it is. That’s because the platter is rotating. When the platter is not rotating, the strobe is indeed a dot at any distance away from the spindle.

If the dash changes in length at a fixed distance away, it is an indication that the speed is fluctuating and correcting, as with belt creep or stretch. If the dashed line migrates to the right (too fast), or to the left (too slow), it indicates inaccurate speed.

With my turntable, at a distance of 12" or less, it is just a very short line, frozen in position. Across the room, it is a long line of stable length and position. I usually look at the leading edge of that long line to gauge movement. This is a very difficult test for a turntable and the device is easy to use, but fairly expensive if still available.

My turntable has the RoadRunner tachometer incorporated in the motor housing. It has a reading of 33.333 or 45.000. It fluctuates +/- 0.002 (33.331-33.335) depending on thread tension and temperature etc. None of that is audible to me. I have seen expensive and highly regarded turntables with displays fluctuating from 33.32 to 33.34.

 

[Salectric]

Interesting. Thanks for explaining.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Here is a video I made with the Sutherland Timeline strobe to test the speed of my turntable. Note that it is very difficult to get the strobe dashed line to remain stable from a distance across the room. The other videos show the dash at a much closer distance. This result for a belt/thread drive table is outstanding. The platter weighs 150 lbs and has a free spin stop time of 30 minutes from 33.333 RPM (also on video). The platter is supported by a cushion of air, so there is very little friction. Speed is very accurate and stable.

The Technics SP10 Mk3 was about the same while the SME 30/12 was worse. Of course the three turntables all sound very different from each other. I once started a thread asking members to upload videos of their turntables using the TimeLine device for comparisons. The thread died a sudden death. One guy claimed to have taken the device into dealerships to spot check various turntables. He made no friends and was not appreciated. I took it to some friend's houses to test their tables. It is very revealing.

I maintain that speed accuracy and consistency after a certain level is not the main criteria for selection a turntable.

Here is the Technics:

Here is the SME:

Wondering if using a spring instead of rubber o rings would improve the SME

 

[PeterA]

Wondering if using a spring instead of rubber o rings would improve the SME

I think the problem with the SME regarding speed was the motor and the controller and perhaps the stretchy belt although there was very little free belt between the motor pulley and sub platter.

The SME has a very distinct sound because of the suspension and all of the dampening. Same with the TechDAS Air Force 1.

That’s an interesting question about spring versus O-rings.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Not really sure why you quoted me showing a bunch of graphs?

They tell a story that can be interesting for some, that’s all. In a time where goods are sold at very high prices and rarely any technical information, just marketing stories, I just wanted to contribute with some data, and make people aware of significant differences that exist . Anyone can do the same with a Shaknspin device , a very cheap insurance to check ONE basic parameter before purchasing.

 

[Tangram]

Let me tell you which turntable you shared deserves the premium price. It's CD.

No, I changed my mind, it's MiniDisc or any mp3 player. If you're familiar with the specs of those you knew that their W&F listed as "Below measurable limit". A problem like speed variation or simply w&f is nonexistent for them. So, the cheap turntable you shared with better w&f performance is miserable compared to a minidisc or a mp3 player. Does w&f alone make them sound best? Does mp3 player deserves the premium price.

This seems disingenuous. I’m no digital expert but don’t all those zeros and ones get read into a buffer?

 

[Tangram]

Let's see, it takes about 1 minute to get the speed data for one turntable, listening takes a bit longer,,

Unamed Turntable 1 high-end store
View attachment 140650


Turntable high end 40 000 usd
View attachment 140652
Another turntable 41 000usd
View attachment 140653
Technics 1200G
View attachment 140654
cheap TT
View attachment 140656


which one deserves a premium price?

While other considerations contribute to a good turntable (isolation, vibration management etc.) speed stability has to be right up there in importance. These data are surprisingly elusive for my turntable, the Stabi R, which is well-reviewed but I couldn’t find a single speed measurement online.

 

[volken]

Interesting article about speedstability
https://www.iar-80.com/page12.html long story with a lot of cumbersome language, but it is clear what it is about.
Use myself a testrecord to do this measurement with a fft analyser tested mostly idlerwheel tables before and after revision EMT R80 was one of the best concerning speed stability not for W@F.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Yes, but that distance would have to be very close to the turntable. The strobe is on for a fraction of a second, and during that time, the dot smears to a line at some distance, the line becoming longer the further away from the spindle it is. That’s because the platter is rotating. When the platter is not rotating, the strobe is indeed a dot at any distance away from the spindle.

If the dash changes in length at a fixed distance away, it is an indication that the speed is fluctuating and correcting, as with belt creep or stretch. If the dashed line migrates to the right (too fast), or to the left (too slow), it indicates inaccurate speed.

With my turntable, at a distance of 12" or less, it is just a very short line, frozen in position. Across the room, it is a long line of stable length and position. I usually look at the leading edge of that long line to gauge movement. This is a very difficult test for a turntable and the device is easy to use, but fairly expensive if still available.

My turntable has the RoadRunner tachometer incorporated in the motor housing. It has a reading of 33.333 or 45.000. It fluctuates +/- 0.002 (33.331-33.335) depending on thread tension and temperature etc. None of that is audible to me. I have seen expensive and highly regarded turntables with displays fluctuating from 33.32 to 33.34.

And I have seen some going between 33.2 and 33.4 or worse … The Roadrunner and VPI combination works extremely well , it is a video in YouTube showing excellent stability of this

 

[Balle Clorin]

While other considerations contribute to a good turntable (isolation, vibration management etc.) speed stability has to be right up there in importance. These data are surprisingly elusive for my turntable, the Stabi R, which is well-reviewed but I couldn’t find a single speed measurement online.

That is why a bought a Shaknspin , by using that and tweaking my Gyro SE turntable set up ( Belt choice, position, leveling,tension ) I reduced wow by 70%… If you have no way if adjusting speed or tweak the belt position or tension , you will be better off NOT knowing your TT performance, just enjoy the music and stop worrying.
The key to stable speed with a belt drive is the belt quality, it can be a factor of 10 worse with a poor belt.that is the difference between a NOS Japan belt and a belt supposed to match but turned out to a be of a unsuitable material.

 

[Balle Clorin]

The problem with test records is eccentricity, I had to center carefully to achieve this … Michell Gyro SE belt drive with optimal set up

 

[volken]

The problem with test records is eccentricity, I had to center carefully to achieve this … Michell Gyro SE belt drive with optimal set up

Yes I use the DS for centering.

The problem with test records is eccentricity, I had to center carefully to achieve this … Michell Gyro SE belt drive with optimal set up

 

[Mr. Miyagi]

No expert here and defer to Lavigna and Bonzo but i would think you could at least hear (i) belt (ii) Direct and (iii) idler to see what technology resonates. If you narrowed that down it could help. As a summary of all conversations i have had what comes to mind are in no order you would do great with any of the below depending on your taste:

1) Commonwealth or Garrad idler
2) AF3 premium
3) Jsikora Reference
4) Birkmann Balance

 

[bonzo75]

No expert here and defer to Lavigna and Bonzo but i would think you could at least hear (i) belt (ii) Direct and (iii) idler to see what technology resonates. If you narrowed that down it could help. As a summary of all conversations i have had what comes to mind are in no order you would do great with any of the below depending on your taste:

1) Commonwealth or Garrad idler
2) AF3 premium
3) Jsikora Reference
4) Birkmann Balance

Garrard is not considered same level as CW by idler fans.

I would not consider an idler except without Dava reference on it (to address the resolution aspect). For other carts idler would be a low cost high value solution, and I would go belt. For Brinkmann balance imperative to have the Dalby on it.

It is true that those who want a bigger sound for less complex classical could like an idler. For classical, idlers require Dava to add in the nuances.

 

[volken]

No expert here and defer to Lavigna and Bonzo but i would think you could at least hear (i) belt (ii) Direct and (iii) idler to see what technology resonates. If you narrowed that down it could help. As a summary of all conversations i have had what comes to mind are in no order you would do great with any of the below depending on your taste:

1) Commonwealth or Garrad idler
2) AF3 premium
3) Jsikora Reference
4) Birkmann Balance

Garrard use a shaded pole motor the CW a reluctance motor as the EMT 930 professional turntables so the Garrard is not on the same level as the other ones .
Better use the EMT 930 .

 

[PeterA]

No expert here and defer to Lavigna and Bonzo but i would think you could at least hear (i) belt (ii) Direct and (iii) idler to see what technology resonates. If you narrowed that down it could help. As a summary of all conversations i have had what comes to mind are in no order you would do great with any of the below depending on your taste:

1) Commonwealth or Garrad idler
2) AF3 premium
3) Jsikora Reference
4) Birkmann Balance

My pick here would be the AF3P, but it is likely more expensive than the others. I would like to compare one of those to my former Micro Seiki SX8000II for <$50K. That Micro is a great value if you can find one in mint condition.

 

[PeterA]

And I have seen some going between 33.2 and 33.4 or worse … The Roadrunner and VPI combination works extremely well , it is a video in YouTube showing excellent stability of this

That is pretty bad performance. I have seen four high mass thread drive tables measure 33.332 to 33.334 with the Roadrunner tachometer. That is X100 times better and not audible. And then the real performance differences come into play once the speed issue is solved.