Bottlehead Repro Tube Head Amp vs Cello/King

[Doc B.]

Thanks Jay,

After perusing this forum a bit I find that I seem to be a bit of a pariah. This crazy idea of trying to start a new "as high end as possible" kind of format - while a very valid and reasonably successful idea - hasn't always been as smooth a process as I would have hoped, and that has probably shown through the veneer here and there. Everyone who has become involved in high end tape playback in the home since we started this idea has come up against a very steep learning curve, whether it be the tape manufacturers struggling to develop a manufacturing and delivery schedule, the record labels struggling to understand why they should bother with such a crazy idea, the techs struggling to adapt to prepping machines for a different kind of use than studio recording, or the end user wrestling with whether or not to take the chance on investing in another format and associated gear. Thankfully the movement continues to pick up traction and grow as we all continue to learn our way through the rough spots. Hopefully some folks here who have decided I'm a bad guy will consider this small contribution useful in this sort of universal struggle to get the format turned into a less daunting endeavor.

Oh, and Ki if you are reading this, firstly I apologize if you feel reticent about posting about your bad experience on the TP forum as you have posted in another thread. I know you are a most patient and honest individual and if the guy was that terrible in his service I think we should get the word out. Secondly, I would suggest contacting Maier Shadi at The Audio Salon in Beverly Hills. He is a Nagra dealer, the proud owner of a Nagra T-Audio, and is hooked up with the Swiss folks who developed the recorder. He might possibly be able to help you to arrange future service by folks who worked at Nagra in Switzerland.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Thanks Jay,

After perusing this forum a bit I find that I seem to be a bit of a pariah. This crazy idea of trying to start a new "as high end as possible" kind of format - while a very valid and reasonably successful idea - hasn't always been as smooth a process as I would have hoped, and that has probably shown through the veneer here and there. Everyone who has become involved in high end tape playback in the home since we started this idea has come up against a very steep learning curve, whether it be the tape manufacturers struggling to develop a manufacturing and delivery schedule, the record labels struggling to understand why they should bother with such a crazy idea, the techs struggling to adapt to prepping machines for a different kind of use than studio recording, or the end user wrestling with whether or not to take the chance on investing in another format and associated gear. Thankfully the movement continues to pick up traction and grow as we all continue to learn our way through the rough spots. Hopefully some folks here who have decided I'm a bad guy will consider this small contribution useful in this sort of universal struggle to get the format turned into a less daunting endeavor.

Oh, and Ki if you are reading this, firstly I apologize if you feel reticent about posting about your bad experience on the TP forum as you have posted in another thread. I know you are a most patient and honest individual and if the guy was that terrible in his service I think we should get the word out. Secondly, I would suggest contacting Maier Shadi at The Audio Salon in Beverly Hills. He is a Nagra dealer, the proud owner of a Nagra T-Audio, and is hooked up with the Swiss folks who developed the recorder. He might possibly be able to help you to arrange future service by folks who worked at Nagra in Switzerland.

Or the other way to look at it Dan is that you're a victim of your own success Subscribers love the tapes (you can see the small sampling of the faves here as well as tape machines being used) and can't wait to get the next one. I even think more people might get involved in tape and buying your TP tapes if there was more software. But OTOH, quality duping takes time. So it seems to unfortunately be another Catch 22 situation

 

[jcmusic]

Thanks Jay,

After perusing this forum a bit I find that I seem to be a bit of a pariah. This crazy idea of trying to start a new "as high end as possible" kind of format - while a very valid and reasonably successful idea - hasn't always been as smooth a process as I would have hoped, and that has probably shown through the veneer here and there. Everyone who has become involved in high end tape playback in the home since we started this idea has come up against a very steep learning curve, whether it be the tape manufacturers struggling to develop a manufacturing and delivery schedule, the record labels struggling to understand why they should bother with such a crazy idea, the techs struggling to adapt to prepping machines for a different kind of use than studio recording, or the end user wrestling with whether or not to take the chance on investing in another format and associated gear. Thankfully the movement continues to pick up traction and grow as we all continue to learn our way through the rough spots. Hopefully some folks here who have decided I'm a bad guy will consider this small contribution useful in this sort of universal struggle to get the format turned into a less daunting endeavor.

Oh, and Ki if you are reading this, firstly I apologize if you feel reticent about posting about your bad experience on the TP forum as you have posted in another thread. I know you are a most patient and honest individual and if the guy was that terrible in his service I think we should get the word out. Secondly, I would suggest contacting Maier Shadi at The Audio Salon in Beverly Hills. He is a Nagra dealer, the proud owner of a Nagra T-Audio, and is hooked up with the Swiss folks who developed the recorder. He might possibly be able to help you to arrange future service by folks who worked at Nagra in Switzerland.

Hey Dan,
No problem my friend, lets look at the bigger pic here. The more small talk and huss and fuss about this and that all leads to more people getting involved and becoming a part of our hobby. At the end of the day it's all for the better for all of us, thanks for your contrabutions to what we all love and enjoy!!!

Jay

 

[jdza]

I have been an Audiophile for most of my adult life my life. For most of that time I have had a Reel to Reel deck around. I would tape a record or two,then the machine would stand around "looking cool"and eventually it would end up in the garage , unused and unloved. Then the Tape Project happened and suddenly a door opened. True there are only a few tapes( so far) but there are other sources of high quality tapes. Suddenly I read,I fiddle ,crawl on my knees in scrapyards,watch e bay like a hawk,rebuild and restore my machines and listen and listen and listen to the best reproduction of music . My turntables have not been turning in weeks.

Thanks Dan and the crew.You guys made this fading hobby fun again .

 

[Doc B.]

Thanks for the kind words guys. I know it takes some patience to wait for these albums to come out. You can bet that I wish we could get them out faster too! But maintaining the quality level requires this semi-excruciating pace.

 

[nikaudio]

UHA Tascam vs Bottlehead vs king/cello

Thanks for the kind words guys. I know it takes some patience to wait for these albums to come out. You can bet that I wish we could get them out faster too! But maintaining the quality level requires this semi-excruciating pace.

I always thought that R2R are relicts of the past. But “unfortunately” by chance I was part of presentation of modified Technics RS1500 with Bottlehead repro vs top digital from Wadia. Unforgettable experience, Wadia lost and not by small margin. So after years dwelling on the subject finally I have bought NOS Tascam BR-20. I wanted to buy deck which was made as recently as possible and in best possible condition.

Now and I’m devouring everything I can find on the subject on the net. Basically when it comes to Tascam NB-20 I have found that it internal stock electronics is based on OP’s amps which do not sound that good,
so some kind repro is needed. From what I have read I have 3 options:
1) Bottlehead repro or Eros external tape preamp (tubed) – which is good because SS power amp no matter how expensive sound kind of lifeless to me, they lack enthusiasm, body, but they got transparency, resolution and speed.
2) King/cello it seems that even SS, it is very often preferred to Bottlehead repro.
3) And I have not found any mention about it here: UHA modified Tascam. They are getting all possible awards from TAS recently. They cramp their G3 tape preamps inside Tascam BR-20. This is the most expensive option out of above. Is it the best ?

Since you are the most knowledgeable and experienced bunch of R2R enthusiasts did you ever compared:
UHA Tascam Phase x to Tascam with external repro be it King/cello or Bottlehead ?
I just trying to figure out which way to go.

best to you all.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I always thought that R2R are relicts of the past. But “unfortunately” by chance I was part of presentation of modified Technics RS1500 with Bottlehead repro vs top digital from Wadia. Unforgettable experience, Wadia lost and not by small margin. So after years dwelling on the subject finally I have bought NOS Tascam BR-20. I wanted to buy deck which was made as recently as possible and in best possible condition.

Now and I’m devouring everything I can find on the subject on the net. Basically when it comes to Tascam NB-20 I have found that it internal stock electronics is based on OP’s amps which do not sound that good,
so some kind repro is needed. From what I have read I have 3 options:
1) Bottlehead repro or Eros external tape preamp (tubed) – which is good because SS power amp no matter how expensive sound kind of lifeless to me, they lack enthusiasm, body, but they got transparency, resolution and speed.
2) King/cello it seems that even SS, it is very often preferred to Bottlehead repro.
3) And I have not found any mention about it here: UHA modified Tascam. They are getting all possible awards from TAS recently. They cramp their G3 tape preamps inside Tascam BR-20. This is the most expensive option out of above. Is it the best ?

Since you are the most knowledgeable and experienced bunch of R2R enthusiasts did you ever compared:
UHA Tascam Phase x to Tascam with external repro be it King/cello or Bottlehead ?
I just trying to figure out which way to go.

best to you all.

There are a few other tape preamplifiers out there including Kara's Dehavilland and the Doshi that Bruce B. is using.

 

[Steve williams]

the Doshi that Bruce B. is using

mine arrives in 2 weeks

 

[Joe Galbraith]

mine arrives in 2 weeks

Steve-

I heard Nick's at RMAF last year and thought it was very special. Disclaimer: I have no intention at this point of moving away from the King/Cello unit that Charles built for me....

 

[Steve williams]

I'm a tube guy

 

[MylesBAstor]

I'm a tube guy

So am I but the King-Cello bested the tube unit I had in my system.

 

[Bruce B]

So am I but the King-Cello bested the tube unit I had in my system.

What tube unit?

 

[Joe Galbraith]

I'm a tube guy

As am I, with the exception of the deck and the King/Cello

 

[MylesBAstor]

What tube unit?

A BH Repro equipped with Teflon Vcaps and Telefunken ECC806S and Amperex E188cc/7308 or Telefunken ECC88 tubes.

 

[mep]

Are there any Bottlehead electronics that sound really good? They all have *cute* adolescent sex names, but I don't see the rigorous engineering in the products or the quality of materials that went into oh, let's say, a 1950's Dynaco kit. I built a Foreplay kit with all of the upgrades of the day (anticipation boards, sweet whispers stepped attenuators) in order to see what all of the fuss was about and I wasn't impressed. Yeah, I know it's cheap, but it sounds cheap too. I would rather have a PAS 3 preamp because it is a full function preamp with a real sheet metal case instead of a funky linestage with funky wiring that has to be installed on a funky wooden frame that you have to glue, sand, stain, and stick little rubber sticky funky feet on the bottom. Woo-Ho. The most professional looking product they ever built was their top of the line tape head preamp, but even that never received any rave reviews.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Are there any Bottlehead electronics that sound really good? They all have *cute* adolescent sex names, but I don't see the rigorous engineering in the products or the quality of materials that went into oh, let's say, a 1950's Dynaco kit. I built a Foreplay kit with all of the upgrades of the day (anticipation boards, sweet whispers stepped attenuators) in order to see what all of the fuss was about and I wasn't impressed. Yeah, I know it's cheap, but it sounds cheap too. I would rather have a PAS 3 preamp because it is a full function preamp with a real sheet metal case instead of a funky linestage with funky wiring that has to be installed on a funky wooden frame that you have to glue, sand, stain, and stick little rubber sticky funky feet on the bottom. Woo-Ho. The most professional looking product they ever built was their top of the line tape head preamp, but even that never received any rave reviews.

i've certainly heard Bottlehead based systems that sound outstanding, really really good. certainly they had characteristics of SET type circuits compared to my solid state circuit based system.....however they were detailed, involving, and i enjoyed them.

those have been Dan's own systems at his home or at shows. i have not really heard systems with 'kit' based Bottlehead products other than at headphone shows (where they sounded just fine). and since i'm about as clueless as it comes about building an amp i cannot comment on what the skill set of the kit-builder might contribute to the performance.

 

[microstrip]

Are there any Bottlehead electronics that sound really good? They all have *cute* adolescent sex names, but I don't see the rigorous engineering in the products or the quality of materials that went into oh, let's say, a 1950's Dynaco kit. I built a Foreplay kit with all of the upgrades of the day (anticipation boards, sweet whispers stepped attenuators) in order to see what all of the fuss was about and I wasn't impressed. Yeah, I know it's cheap, but it sounds cheap too. I would rather have a PAS 3 preamp because it is a full function preamp with a real sheet metal case instead of a funky linestage with funky wiring that has to be installed on a funky wooden frame that you have to glue, sand, stain, and stick little rubber sticky funky feet on the bottom. Woo-Ho. The most professional looking product they ever built was their top of the line tape head preamp, but even that never received any rave reviews.

I own a Bottlehead Eros Tape Head Preamplifier Kit. Their engineering is excellent, much superior and not comparable to the Dynaco kits.

Components: Signal wiring is all point to point with Teflon insulated wire and solid core shielded twisted pair cable. The power supply is easily assembled on PC boards. It is an efficient Schottky rectifier supply feeding dual active loaded hybrid (12BH7/LM431) shunt regulators in parallel with each channel of the preamplifier circuit. The DC heater supply is a full wave bridge of super quiet Schottky rectifiers feeding a Linear Technology regulator. Each channel of the preamplifier circuit is a C4S isolated EF86 voltage amplifier direct coupled to 1/2 of a C4S isolated 6DJ8 voltage amplifier, with the passive, switchable NEB/IEC equalization network positioned between the two gain stages. Only one output coupling capacitor is in the signal path of each channel - a metallized polypropylene type. Resistors are a combination of high quality metal film, carbon film and carbon composition resistors, each chosen for optimal performance in the intended application. Filter capacitors are overrated for long life. Tube sockets are high quality ceramic with aluminum shields. A ground post is provided for phono cable and turntable grounding.

IMHO it sounds very good with my Studer A80 - although I am biased with one of the worst of the expectation biases : I assembled it and improved a few components. BTW this kit costs usd 799.

 

[mep]

i've certainly heard Bottlehead based systems that sound outstanding, really really good. certainly they had characteristics of SET type circuits compared to my solid state circuit based system.....however they were detailed, involving, and i enjoyed them.

those have been Dan's own systems at his home or at shows. i have not really heard systems with 'kit' based Bottlehead products other than at headphone shows (where they sounded just fine). and since i'm about as clueless as it comes about building an amp i cannot comment on what the skill set of the kit-builder might contribute to the performance.

The skill set of the builder will affect the outcome of the product, let there be no doubt. I have built lots of tube gear over the years, including preamps and tube power amps from scratch.

 

[Bruce B]

I'm a tube guy

I'm 'not' a tube guy and the Doshi blew me away.... that's why I bought 2!

 

[flez007]

I'm 'not' a tube guy and the Doshi blew me away.... that's why I bought 2!

Not a "tube guy" Bruce?, now I am dissapointed!