Brick and Mortar Stores

[Kingrex]

Audiogon delivers more options, on more gear than anyone I am aware of.

You can find several versions on what your looking for in one place.

So true. I many time peruse Audiogon, US Audiomart, Hifi Shark etc to just see what is out there. Then I go onto forums and online reviews and start developing an opinion. If I get more interested I call friends who may have had it, like Joe. Hes had everything.. I also read manufacture websites. If it's reasonably priced new, I may call a dealer. If I go that route, I usually buy it new. My preamp, all digital and phono gear as well as cables are all new. One set of speakers is new and one used. One set of amps is new and one used.

In all honesty I usually don't buy used anymore. Its so often others garbage. If I am leaning towards used, I prefer a dealer add. I just feel there reputation lends them selling what they know is solid. I took a shot recently on used amps from a member here and once again got a burned out failing amp. It's such a heart ache and headache to deal with. I'm way to honest to dump it on someone else.

The Brick and Mortar near me. It's just not me. Not what I want. Now with Covid I can't even do trips to San Francisco, Portland, Vancouver where I can combine fun and viewing. But to others points about stores, I was in San Fran a couple years ago and wanted to see the YG. I was pretty much brushed off and told to take a hike. Don't bother coming around. Same with a call to a store 6 months ago. Guy said whats my budget, I said maybe $5k. He said he was busy and hung up.

I can say this about many audio dealers I have met. I am very turned off talking with them. They ask what you have, then dive into explaining why what you bought is "S#!t" and you wastes your money. Way to many audio dealers are trash talking fools. I am so turned off by trash talk. As for me, it has probably killed a few deals where I would have pursued the gear further and maybe bought it, if it were not for the rudity of the verbal exchange.

In closing, although almost everything I have is new, not a single piece was bought from B&M. All direct or online distributors.

 

[DSkip]

Personally I find the online classifieds to be a business-builder. I take in trades from clients and help them get into products I carry. Then, I sell their products online and local sales have the buyer drop by my demo space and experience what I do. It creates a chain reaction and word of mouth that is hard to generate.

My approach as a dealer has always been to approach the system as a whole and address the bottleneck vs. selling a product because a client tells me he wants it. Sometimes it gets them to switch gears, other times they stay steady, and yet other times it kills a deal altogether. I'm not a great salesman in that regard, but I also believe when it becomes a partnership to create a better system, the clients are rewarded greatly. I also tell clients I do everything I can to not get them on a merry-go-round of gear, which is where dealers separate themselves from online classifieds. We can save you lots of headache, time, and expense if that partnership is created. It can actually turn out CHEAPER to deal with a proper dealer, but dealers have to earn their trust.

As for B&M, I do think online classifieds have made it tougher. If you can hear it in a store and then go directly online and get it for half off used, its hard for a client NOT to take that route. This is probably why many audiophiles feel like the industry goes from entry level to ultra high end extremely fast - the clients at the entry level are ignorant of online classified sites and will pay for the gear. The Ultra high end client usually isn't concerned about minor discounts and will pay for new to get the service and support that the dealer offers. With the middle-lings, they are constantly watching the used market and waiting for a deal to strike. Many here also are looking for the quick flip, so instead of tying their money up in product that actually makes their gear sound better, they revolve through mediocrity to make a small buck or two down the road. It can be terribly tough to sell gear in that gap.

I would honestly love to have a B&M someday, but I doubt it will happen. It really doesn't NEED to happen. I purposely sought out my current house because of the 20'x17'x10' room sectioned from the rest of the house. That is my shop and my demo space. The overhead can't possibly get any lower and also allows me to survive the valleys much easier. Given the current climate, I can't tell you how thankful I am that I DON"T have a B&M right now...

 

[Elliot G.]

The direction specialty audio dealers chose in the 90's created the vacuum that was filled by Audiogon. It was the dealer who chased customers out of their stores, not Audiogon. Remember those listening rooms being converted into theaters. Instead of greeting you to discuss two channel audio, sales guys were busy creating proposals and booking trucks. They had no time to talk. Priorities had shifted, driven by a business model that embraced home theater and 2nd mortgages/Re-fi's at the expense of the two channel guy. But if you wanted to buy that dream pre-amp for which your local store was still a dealer, it was no longer on demo. Instead of listening to it, the dealer would be happy to order it for you - at retail with no refunds and no exchanges. Customers just want to be treated fairly. For the two channel guy who once had a place to go to find out about the latest gear, to enjoy being a repeat buyer, to trade his gear to upgrade, to feel special about his hobby, there was nothing fair about this. Dealers took away the things he valued. All that was left was a box. Of course, he wanted to pay less. Certainly this was not all dealers, but it was enough of them to cause the sea change that was Audiogon.

As a dealer, you can lament Audiogon or you can leverage it. Those that leverage it take advantage of the largest high end sales platform in the world.

Wilson Audio encourages our dealers to use some of their Wilson Brand Awareness funds to pay for a dealer Audiogon page. Our Trade-In and Certified AuthenticTM programs could be nowhere near as successful as they are without Audiogon.

As always, ymmv.

You to my friend.
I think there any many facets to the demise of Brick and Mortar but bad business policies on both sides are to blame.
The Audio Industry business model is something form the 1950's that has never evolved. The way business was done in the limited distribution and fair trade era has never been updated and yet we don't really have either for a very long time. As someone that has been a dealer and worked for other dealers in multiple areas and states this is just fact. I worked for over 15 years in NY in both the suburbs and the city. When I was in NYC we were the preeminent dealer in the world for many years however even then no one could do all the business for all the brands in a city like NY. We tried but it wasn't possible to make all the manufacturers happy. The entry level to become an audio dealer was only a check book and a check book that many manufacturers were happy to take regardless of qualifications. Audio store entry has very few barriers other than money.
I am not lamenting over Audiogon just pointing out that it was a significant factor in the changing of how audio business was done. This and custom took clients OUT of the brick and mortar audio stores, This changed the level of service and of experience that clients had with products and caused a lot of the friction that is pointed out. All of these things are true , not saying they were good just that they did happen. The relationships that dealers had with vendors was altered forever. This is not all or none but just many. If you like you can track the products and the stores they were in over a period of time and you might find it very interesting. I don't think that most consumers understand the economics of the audio business and they want to blame the dealers for all kinds of things that they may not be in control of.
For example, The manufacturers ALWAYS get their list price when selling to the dealers. The manufacturers today are not extending credit ( i am sure there are some that due but for the most part) this was not the case for a very long time, and so there risk was greatly reduced and leverage for dealers was greatly eliminated. Service has always been a vague issue and not a subject I want to get into here its just to fucked up to try to explain but some companies are very very good and most are not. If one reads the warranty statements I think clients would be shocked at what is and isn't their responsibility.
Every buyer wants the "
best product " at the "best price" and the best service. This rarely exists. As a dealer I was guilty of all the crimes and none of the crimes. The thing that we all learn is you can't please everyone and that you have to use your time wisely to make sure your business survives and that you can make a living. Many, not all, Audiophiles are difficult and particular buyers and say they don't want anything but a price but that is rarely true. The best customers and usually the best results were had when I developed a relationship with a client and we both worked together to meet his/her goals and desires. I have many clients that are still with me for well over 20/30/40 years. I also know that there are those who think I suck. Both are true LOL

 

[kach22i]

The demise of the Brick and Mortar store runs across nearly all markets and sectors outside of audio.

Exclusions are those business with a social element (ie audiophile events) and those items requiring a tactile or spacial experience (ie lkea).

I guess some things are need right then and now like a box of nails for a builder that miscalculated and ran short.

I remember skipping H.S. class in 1976 to see the Kinks at Peaches Records, got me in the store, long gone now.

Borders Books had live music events in the store, also gone.

If you have to resort to special events just to get people in the door, you may win that battle but will lose the war.

I have a concept that combines an addictive substance (nicotine) and stereo called Music & Cigars.

Get a liquor license and 4X the profit.

Maybe have some cold plates in the cooler to keep customers there longer.

So now we have music, booze, smoking, food and socializing..........didn't we used to call these places bars?

Music Bar!

I'll sketch something up if anyone is interested. Thinking it will have an outdoor courtyard like a Casa.

Point is, one needs a social element (in my opinion).

 

[vindixon]

When I moved to NYC in the early 2000's I walked by Sounds By Singer on my way to work daily. I loved to look at the equipment in the shop window. I picked up the courage to go inside and I bought an amp & pre amp from them. I felt treated like a cockroach as it was must not have been a significant sale (it was for me). I went back a few times to be treated either like I was invisible or if I asked a question not very smart. I got the message. I never returned.

A few years later I'm speaking with a friend about my dealer Maier Shadi of the Audio Salon in Santa Monica. He said that he knew the store as he had bought a $400 Dac there, he was having problems setting it up so Maier drove over to Culver City to help him. That's why I consider Maier as a friend who helps me with this hobby and the first person I turn to when I am upgrading. Service with a capital S. I don't believe it is about margins, dealers have high overhead, it's about care and passion.

 

[Kingrex]

he was having problems setting it up so Maier drove over to Culver City to help him. That's why I consider Maier as a friend who helps me with this hobby and the first person I turn to when I am upgrading. Service with a capital S. I don't believe it is about margins, dealers have high overhead, it's about care and passion.

All my pieces have excellent support and every one was either a direct sale or dealer without a store. Maybe a living room to demo their personal system that represents what they sell.

 

[metaphacts]

..Point is, one needs a social element (in my opinion).

This is indeed the point.

This is why some dealers remained successful, even thrived right up to the outbreak/shutdowns.

Covid is going to challenge how the "gathering place" continues. But there are dealers out there trying all kinds of ideas to socially engage, even while they were/are shuttered. Those dealers are part of why some distributors/manufacturers are doing quite well even now.

 

[Alrainbow]

When I moved to NYC in the early 2000's I walked by Sounds By Singer on my way to work daily. I loved to look at the equipment in the shop window. I picked up the courage to go inside and I bought an amp & pre amp from them. I felt treated like a cockroach as it was must not have been a significant sale (it was for me). I went back a few times to be treated either like I was invisible or if I asked a question not very smart. I got the message. I never returned.

A few years later I'm speaking with a friend about my dealer Maier Shadi of the Audio Salon in Santa Monica. He said that he knew the store as he had bought a $400 Dac there, he was having problems setting it up so Maier drove over to Culver City to help him. That's why I consider Maier as a friend who helps me with this hobby and the first person I turn to when I am upgrading. Service with a capital S. I don't believe it is about margins, dealers have high overhead, it's about care and passion.

Sound by Singer was always bad ..!

 

[Ovenmitt]

When I moved to Austin in the early ‘90’s, there were 5-6 brick and mortar stores. Austin was a much smaller city then too. Presently
only one of those original B&M’s survive and it’s a shell of its former self, with about 1/4 of it’s old floor space and not much gear for demo.

Thankfully, one of the other dealers is also still present and works out of his home. From my perspective, it’s important to support him and I try to buy my Equipment from him whenever I can. I put A LOT of value in the support he provides - helping to set-up my network streaming, letting me borrow equipment so I can try it before I buy it, etc. He also happens to like music, so we usually talk about that (and wine) more than cables and boxes. Having said that, I do miss not being able to wonder into an B&M audio store and check out the stuff that’s on the racks, touch it, listen to it, shoot the breeze with the salesmen. I can still visit my dealer these days but it’s more of a process; no one wants somebody just dropping by their home between the hours of 10-7, lol!

From my consumer perspective, I can’t help but think that high-end audio has become a lifestyle product these days. When I was a kid everyone had a stereo.... you just did. It was kind of like having a TV. I had my own stereo from the time I was about five years old. When I first got into the higher-end stuff (what I think of as mid-fi now), I would still see the super top stuff in the stores... the really expensive stuff that made me almost afraid to breathe in its general vicinity. While that equipment was out of my reach then, a person could still build “the best’ system for 50-60 thousand dollars. Today, you’re looking at a million or more....

 

[metaphacts]

When I moved to Austin in the early ‘90’s, there were 5-6 brick and mortar stores. Austin was a much smaller city then too. Presently
only one of those original B&M’s survive and it’s a shell of its former self, with about 1/4 of it’s old floor space and not much gear for demo.

Thankfully, one of the other dealers is also still present and works out of his home. From my perspective, it’s important to support him and I try to buy my Equipment from him whenever I can. I put A LOT of value in the support he provides - helping to set-up my network streaming, letting me borrow equipment so I can try it before I buy it, etc. He also happens to like music, so we usually talk about that (and wine) more than cables and boxes. Having said that, I do miss not being able to wonder into an B&M audio store and check out the stuff that’s on the racks, touch it, listen to it, shoot the breeze with the salesmen. I can still visit my dealer these days but it’s more of a process; no one wants somebody just dropping by their home between the hours of 10-7, lol!

From my consumer perspective, I can’t help but think that high-end audio has become a lifestyle product these days. When I was a kid everyone had a stereo.... you just did. It was kind of like having a TV. I had my own stereo from the time I was about five years old. When I first got into the higher-end stuff (what I think of as mid-fi now), I would still see the super top stuff in the stores... the really expensive stuff that made me almost afraid to breathe in its general vicinity. While that equipment was out of my reach then, a person could still build “the best’ system for 50-60 thousand dollars. Today, you’re looking at a million or more....

Austin has a new B&M dealer who opened last month. The store is Sound Sanctuary. Looking at the brands you have in your systems, he may not be your guy but he does add a quality option to the Austin market. Glenn's a dealer for VTL, D'Agostino, ARC, Aurender, B&W, Sonus, AQ, and Wilson among others.

 

[tima]

Hooray for more B&M !

 

[twitch]

The demise of the Brick and Mortar store runs across nearly all markets and sectors outside of audio.]

Agreed George, but there are so many reason for the decline in our brick & mortar Stereo Salons. Back in the seventies and early eighties when analog rang supreme it was the place to go for setup, interaction in general of all things audio. We now have the internet and even with a 'niche resurgence' of vinyl everything we relied on our dealer for 30-40 years ago is pretty much found online along with A-LOT of misinformation !

 

[kach22i]

Audiogon was founded Sept 1, 1998.

Arnie ran Accutronics in Ann Arbor, MI and I remember him first telling me about this website he was working on in 1998.

His basement store was in the lower level downtown, I think he first opened in the early 1990's selling mostly used boom-boxes to college students in the front of the space, then later expanded and went hi-end by the mid 1990's.

In the last few years he lived upstairs on the 2nd or 3rd floor and had a special listening room about the time I purchased my Atlantis audio rack from him.

Anyway, looks like he was active in a Google group back in 1994 when dial-up modems and AOL was all the rage.

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/rec.audio.opinion/Xc-41q5F2Ag

And here.....

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/rec.audio.opinion/Xc-41q5F2Ag

The wave of change was coming, he cast his sail into the wind, and so here we are today.

 

[kach22i]

Agreed George, but there are so many reason for the decline in our brick & mortar Stereo Salons. Back in the seventies and early eighties when analog rang supreme it was the place to go for setup, interaction in general of all things audio. We now have the internet and even with a 'niche resurgence' of vinyl everything we relied on our dealer for 30-40 years ago is pretty much found online along with A-LOT of misinformation !

I just tried to find out how much of the new audio equipment was started by GoFundMe and similar online funding, and discovered stereo stores getting in on the action to save their brick and mortar location.

Ie see below:

https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-...medium=referral&utm_campaign=p_cp+share-sheet

Strange times when the Internet is turning around to save that which it destroyed.

 

[Alrainbow]

Im more interested in the personality behind the store than products carried , can i drop in an socialize , purchase records , discuss whats new or is every visit about an appt or a sale. The Prior becomes your store where one drops in and most purchases are gonna be with that guy , regardless as advise is sort friendship made , the latter is competing against audiogon and the internet for prices..

 

[twitch]

George, COVID has been tough on a lot of small business owners for sure.

Al, I agree on the socialization part of one local brick and mortar. I've had that with my local one for well over 30 years

 

[kach22i]

George, COVID has been tough on a lot of small business owners for sure.

Al, I agree on the socialization part of one local brick and mortar. I've had that with my local one for well over 30 years

My wife is convinced that social distancing is the "new normal".

When pushed she will not commit to a number such as 5-10 years. Just that if your business is to survive the business model must be adjusted to the current environment and not just closing down until things return to normal.

She teaches introductory business courses in college, a college that has adjusted to all online until at least winter term.

Head of the college is a statistician and is using the 1918 pandemic with it's destructive second wave as an example of what we should expect to follow.

So much for a brick and mortar stereo store serving as a social center or cigar lounge for now.

FYI: when Arnie started Audiogon he vanished from Accutronics for the most part, leaving that part of the business to his son Christian. This lasted about a year, then Christian started building large custom homes at the Polo Fields.

 

[AudioLibertarian]

Sound by Singer was always bad ..!

I know lot of folks love to trash the Sound by Singer store, but despite Andy S. often being arrogant and condescending, some say insulting (actually him being a fairly decent judge of character he could smell those potential clients that he could kinda "intimidate" and get away with it, that was not the case with me though, I have to say, but such is life: some folks are alfa types, and some are beta types) to a few of his current, or the potential clients, his store offered what no other store was offering at that time: high end audio seminars & mini high-end shows that for few days allowed anyone who would walk in, to audition the state of the art systems and the interaction with many hi-end luminaries, like who is who of the high end, and with high end buffet and champagne to boot …Myself being just out of college and struggling financially in middle of the 90s, those seminars proved an invaluable learning experience as an audiophile, as I pretty much was able to listen and compare creme a la creme of hi-end goodies…. Nowhere else, under one roof would one be able to listen and compare, the Apogee Grands, and Focal Utopias and the Wilson Wamms, and boutique French tube amps, etc…. Of course the fact that David Lalin was working there , and who was tremendously helpful and gracious (despite knowing I was not ready to buy anything at that very moment), but Andy had the foresight to build the future clientele, and invested heavily into that, and for that I will be forever grateful to him and his Union Sq shop….

 

[Phillyb]

How bad are dealers today? I went to my local high-end audio store. I've not been there in years and so I thought I stop in and see what products they were carrying. I saw a few speakers that I've not heard and asked to hear them. One was 14K the other 20K. The store manager said sure, told me to sit in a chair he dragged out, they pick up each speaker plopped them down, and said enjoy. I thought this is it, not care in setup or positioning, they sounded like crap. I walked through the store and saw just an anything-goes set up in the other 2 rooms, with no care taken at all.

I figured unlike the days of audio hobbyists running stores with a staff of music lovers who loved gear, and really could be helpful due to their experience, the stores today just want to sell gear, that is a huge difference. I would never go back into that store again, I was going to pay 24-20K for what? The manager just sat, and after speaking with him I realized I know more about products than him.

I might as well buy online and research the products myself and educate myself, and then I might as well look for it preowned because I've done all the work, why would I pay full price? My local store gave me no help nor any value what so ever. This store has been around 25 years or so, different owners perhaps and managers, but it is the pits now.

 

[BruceD]

For me in my Audio trek--there is only one dealer I can recall with any reverence

Jonas Miller

RIP

BruceD