Cable Modems

ctydwn

Well-Known Member
Aug 23, 2019
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Love this thread and continue to learn alot.

I know most of you all likely watch the Taiko thread as well.

Looking forward to finally getting rid of:
- my modem concerns - upgraded 3 times; installed special LPSs; various efforts to isolate, various power cords; tried isolation tweak/add-ons bw cable and modem; hours trying to convince my provider to support alternatives, etc.

- m12 switches (w/ dedicated high end LPSs, grounding, damping and isolation)

- edgerouter nuances/programming/ damping/grounding and LPSs

- home networking wifi challenges. Countless hours lol

- scouring the list of countless modems that I can’t use due to my service provider and antiquated need for a land line.

To transition to the Taiko router, switch and network card to take care of my networking concerns.

Obviously not for free, and fortunate to have their server, but I am taking comfort in Emile’s/Taiko’s expertise and a seemingly one stop shop solution in the coming months to isolate and maximize SQ

The thread is laced w info on why they have come up w their solution, 4 years of discussion and its ultimate benefits.

Question for that thread could be, does their bundled solution put to rest the need to discern the best modem for SQ at home entry point if the Taiko router, switch and network card will be employed. And, if not a Taiko Server owner, can the router and switch still bypass the frustrating modem selection issues

to be clear, just a lonely (blissful) audio person no affiliations
 
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MarcelNL

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Mar 15, 2021
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yeah if you can/want to support the expense of running a full blown Taiko network that is probably the easiest route!
I have great confidence in what they do, it's that I like to tinker that I stay with the DIY route but what they are rolling out is for sure tempting (also because of their IMO pretty much unparallelled customer support)
 
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Steve Vu

Well-Known Member
Oct 26, 2020
191
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Love this thread and continue to learn alot.

I know most of you all likely watch the Taiko thread as well.

Looking forward to finally getting rid of:
- my modem concerns - upgraded 3 times; installed special LPSs; various efforts to isolate, various power cords; tried isolation tweak/add-ons bw cable and modem; hours trying to convince my provider to support alternatives, etc.

- m12 switches (w/ dedicated high end LPSs, grounding, damping and isolation)

- edgerouter nuances/programming/ damping/grounding and LPSs

- home networking wifi challenges. Countless hours lol

- scouring the list of countless modems that I can’t use due to my service provider and antiquated need for a land line.

To transition to the Taiko router, switch and network card to take care of my networking concerns.

Obviously not for free, and fortunate to have their server, but I am taking comfort in Emile’s/Taiko’s expertise and a seemingly one stop shop solution in the coming months to isolate and maximize SQ

The thread is laced w info on why they have come up w their solution, 4 years of discussion and its ultimate benefits.

Question for that thread could be, does their bundled solution put to rest the need to discern the best modem for SQ at home entry point if the Taiko router, switch and network card will be employed. And, if not a Taiko Server owner, can the router and switch still bypass the frustrating modem selection issues

to be clear, just a lonely (blissful) audio person no affiliations
If you are not a Taiko owner, you can use their router but cannot use their switch. However, there are many other products in the market, you can buy and improve your system clearly.

Taiko products are only the best for Taiko owners, not for others.
 

gfroman

Well-Known Member
Dec 28, 2012
461
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@Kingrex Yes that’s correct. In router advanced settings there may be 2 radio settings to turn off, one for each of 2.4ghz and 5ghz.

And yes, a wifi access point can also act as a router, but you want this functionality turned off (DHCP Server = disabled) so you are not running double routers on the network.

Wifi access points can also act as range extenders, but if it’s your only wireless device you need to set the operation mode to Access Point.
Playing around with settings for my router.

Option #1 DHCP turned off = several of my sites won't open like Qobuz and banking site.
Option #2 DHCP turned off, Configure iPV4 Manually = All sites open

Is Option #2 ok for removing most of the router noise?
 

agisthos

Well-Known Member
Oct 14, 2012
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935
Playing around with settings for my router.

Option #1 DHCP turned off = several of my sites won't open like Qobuz and banking site.
Option #2 DHCP turned off, Configure iPV4 Manually = All sites open

Is Option #2 ok for removing most of the router noise?

No, DHCP is to do with assigning ip addresses across the network.
Disabling wi-fi, something totally different, is what removes noise.
 
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Kingrex

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Feb 3, 2019
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I have my Audion Black Shadow in. They have a lot higher distortions than the Atmasphere and Dartzeel. Having said that, I went into the router and turned off the WIFI broadcast in 2.4 and 5 ghz. I did not hear a difference between a track I was streaming on Qobuz.

I did also go online and purchase the same album in 24/96. I downloaded it to a flash drive, then moved the file to my server and saved the file onto the hard drive. I could hear a nice boost in overall natural sound with the higher resolution file on the drive.
 

Kingrex

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Feb 3, 2019
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FWIW, all my modem, router, switch have independent LPS and all 3 are plugging into circuits feed from my Torus wall mount transformer. I have very good power to this equipment. You can clearly hear the benefit of the LPS feed by the Torus. I also heard a small boost when I put these 3 power supply into a Triplite. It is clear the Torus is superior when moving them from the Triplite to Torus. I was comparing to see if noise from the LPS was getting back into the power that feeds the rest of my gear. There may be some, but its sonically better to have them all from the one wall mount Torus.
 

MarcelNL

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Mar 15, 2021
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Guess I need to install the balanced isolation transformer in the box where the power enters the house...

BTW: high def files IME often appear to sound better at first hearing, but the red book version often tops it when doing more comparing. Probably mainly when a high def file is created after the fact..
 

Kingrex

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Feb 3, 2019
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People I trust say whatever is the native format most always sounds best. I think the files I bought were native 24/96. Its a new album.
 

Xymox

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Apr 16, 2019
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www.appletvx.com
I use Aruba access points and always a dedicated modem ( S33 ) which I mod and feed with a R-Core linear. I feed that to a high end router for low jitter. You want wireline speeds with the smallest packets, IE no speed loses or added jitter when handling any packet sizes. As everything is going to DOCSIS 4 multigig, or at least full duplex 2Gbps, I feel its important to be multigig ready. IMHO. Also of course galvanic isolation of the modem from the wall. https://www.amazon.com/TII-220-Ground-Isolator-applications/dp/B0070Q6URO

You can feed the Arubas with a linear.
 

WladimirMXP

New Member
Feb 13, 2023
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Hello sir,

I'm seeking advice on cable modems and networking generally, so hopefully you could help me out with a few things.

Lately I've been optimizing my network chain for the audio and now considering the possibilities for pre-wifi-bridge part of the chain, so starting with modem now.

Currently I'm using Compal CH7465 (Puma 6), which is whole plasticky and heating as hell, but the only other possibility is just "Vodafone Station", which is essentially just branded Arris TG3442DE (Puma 7). But at least it's in a metal chassis and with a reportedly little lesser power consumption.
Another thing is that if I change to Arris, ISP will upgrade my connection to DOCSIS 3.1 (from the current 3.0).

Here's one local article of comparing these two modems with some jitter measurements: https://www.lupa.cz/clanky/gigabitove-pripojeni-od-vodafonu-rychlosti-a-zkusenosti-s-novym-routerem/

There might be a chance that there's one more possibility, but not broadly offered, so I don't know yet if plausible anyway. Before I put a fight for it, would you please take a look at it, if it's anyhow better than the first two (for just the modem role) ?

If I don't have any other option, just those first two, I guess I'll be better off with the Arris, right?
_____________________

Now continuing of the hardware path, I have an Asus RT-AC58U for the Wifi part, making the Wifi-bridge to my "clean" audio system. Currently, it's operating in an Access Point mode, so the routing is doing my modem at the moment. As I don't have a separate router for the task, will it be better to switch the routing duties to this Asus or letting it on my modem?

Thanks you so much for any input,
Vlad
 

matthias

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2019
1,226
545
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Germany
"Vodafone Station"

I use a Vodafone Station (in Germany) WiFi6 / DOCSIS3.1 with Broadcom chip, the Technicolor CGA6444VF.
Vodafone offers also a similar one from Arris (Puma) with the same specs. I tried both and prefer the Technicolor.
I have it running completely Wi-Fi, works without issues on the three floors at my place.

Matt
 
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WladimirMXP

New Member
Feb 13, 2023
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That's fantastic Matt, I will ask my ISP (VF CZ) if they will allow this model operate here, but people on local forums say that noone has been allowed so far.

I might add that I'm pretty serious about the sound quality, therefore I'm already waiting for a LPSU for modem & access point and a coax cable from Afterdark. I also just ordered that ground loop isolator recommended here and if someone here will be kind enough to suggest a good dedicated router with reasonable price/performance, I'll order it as well (and another LPSU for it :)).
 

WladimirMXP

New Member
Feb 13, 2023
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Ok so after a long call with my ISP, I might be able to use any EuroDOCSIS 3.1 modem for my connection. Can't tell, what will it be like with any firmware updates, but anyway - what are your suggestions for a good modem please?
 

vert

Well-Known Member
Oct 26, 2015
114
44
258
I have my Audion Black Shadow in. They have a lot higher distortions than the Atmasphere and Dartzeel. Having said that, I went into the router and turned off the WIFI broadcast in 2.4 and 5 ghz. I did not hear a difference between a track I was streaming on Qobuz.

I can easily hear the difference with Qobuz when I turn off the WiFi broadcast on my Broadcom xfinity router.
 

Kingrex

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2019
2,799
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I can easily hear the difference with Qobuz when I turn off the WiFi broadcast on my Broadcom xfinity router.
Does this mean one of us is set up correct and the other not?

I can see about 10 of my neighbors routers. I have all sorts of RF. Why would 1 of 10 make a difference. I put a Torus wall mount transformer in and that made a big difference. I even hear an apparent sonic change when I plug the 3 LPS that feed my modem, router, switch into the Torus as opposed to into the wall or into a Topaz or Triplite.

I personally see turning off the broadcast as a sound practice. But its going to be situation and system dependent. I encourage people to try it. Why not.
 

Xymox

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2019
328
268
150
www.appletvx.com
Hello sir,

I'm seeking advice on cable modems and networking generally, so hopefully you could help me out with a few things.

Lately I've been optimizing my network chain for the audio and now considering the possibilities for pre-wifi-bridge part of the chain, so starting with modem now.

Currently I'm using Compal CH7465 (Puma 6), which is whole plasticky and heating as hell, but the only other possibility is just "Vodafone Station", which is essentially just branded Arris TG3442DE (Puma 7). But at least it's in a metal chassis and with a reportedly little lesser power consumption.
Another thing is that if I change to Arris, ISP will upgrade my connection to DOCSIS 3.1 (from the current 3.0).

Here's one local article of comparing these two modems with some jitter measurements: https://www.lupa.cz/clanky/gigabitove-pripojeni-od-vodafonu-rychlosti-a-zkusenosti-s-novym-routerem/

There might be a chance that there's one more possibility, but not broadly offered, so I don't know yet if plausible anyway. Before I put a fight for it, would you please take a look at it, if it's anyhow better than the first two (for just the modem role) ?

If I don't have any other option, just those first two, I guess I'll be better off with the Arris, right?
_____________________

Now continuing of the hardware path, I have an Asus RT-AC58U for the Wifi part, making the Wifi-bridge to my "clean" audio system. Currently, it's operating in an Access Point mode, so the routing is doing my modem at the moment. As I don't have a separate router for the task, will it be better to switch the routing duties to this Asus or letting it on my modem?

Thanks you so much for any input,
Vlad

One of my side gigs was taking on Intel in the class action lawsuit against the Puma chip. Eventually after a 3 year battle Intel abandoned the Connected Home division and sold off the Puma chip to Max Linear. The issue which caused the bad performance is a silicon issue that would have required Intel to really redo the silicon. The Puma came from Texas Instruments which sold the Puma 5 to Intel. Intel added some CPU capacity to handle more bandwidth and added a 2nd CPU on the same SoIC. This second CPU allowed them to run applications not just be a modem. The marketing plan was to become a "connected home hub". Intel had no chips for the mobile market and PC sales were dropping. So they desperatly wanted into set top boxes. So the Puma 6 was born and Intel gave these chips away to various mfgrs like Arris and to all makers worldwide. Then I came along and measured performance of the new Puma 6. It was horrendous. 10 TIMES more latency, huge latency spikes of 250ms every 10 seconds. It turned out there was a silicon oopsie. WHile Intel made the CPU more powerful they overlooked a key LUT buffer and the Look Up Table was for a tiny household from the 90's of like 3-4 devices. This immd overloaded and caused HUGE issues. TONS of people ended up having issues and a series of class action lawsuits against Arris occurred. I did a 6 hour deposition with Arris/Intel lawyers. It was fun :) The lawsuit obtained tons of internal emails from Intel that showed they knew the issue was there and it was serious and it was not fixable. They kept selling it. You can still buy them. They are still deployed all over the world. They created a patch that mitigated the issue and it helped with the Puma 7. However testing showed the Broadcom chip was just WAY WAY better performance.

There is still a open denial of service exploit that was never fully addressed by Intel. Its possible to knock a Puma based device off line in a trival way and keep it offline. The patches issued never fully resolved this. https://www.eteknix.com/virgin-media-superhub-3-vulnerable-low-bandwidth-dos/ https://www.theregister.com/2017/04/27/intel_puma6_chipset_trivial_to_dos/

Intel knew it was doomed in this venture. They sold off the chip and gave up on set top box world domination. I won.

Broadcom gave me T-Shirts. Intel still hates me to this day.

MANY online sources discuss all this..

Intel based modems/gateways should be avoided for music. They create excess jitter.

Now its possible that other things in the device, like wifi RF ingress and other sources of noise, cause issues that affect music rendering aside from the chip.

The big issue coming is that DOCSIS cable modems and ISPs are all going Multi-gig. IE speeds like 2.5/5 Gbps. So you need a DOCSIS 3.1 model like a Arris S33. If you dont need those higher speeds the SB8200 is a great modem.

You should always use a modem and a separate router and a separate wifi access point system like Aruba Instant if at all possible. This is more complex tho and you can't do this in some countries.

Lots of things come into play when doing this all for music. Grounding ( the isolator ), RF noise causing all manner of jitter and noise on the ethernet which induces jitter, packet processing jitter, phase noise on the clock in the modem. I have been doing my own highly modded modems for a while. I always do a bunch of mods and address the clock and the subper complex OFDM and QAM modulator for the cable signal. I clean up the power supplies radicically internally. I also add a fan. I do all this more for stability as a cable modem for data. I can measure the results in actual packet jitter and ever so slightly better Signal to noise on the status page.

I had a lot of dealings with other countries during the Puma fiasco. Germany was pretty locked into the Pumas at the time. Some countries have a national ISP and you CANNOT pick your own device. Intel moved into these markets and tried to take those over. Broadcom has slowed moved back in as these Intel based devices age out.

A SB8200 has awesome specs and known low jitter. BUT is limited to 1Gbps
The S33 is multigig and also quite good. Its also good out to 2.5 Gbps.
 
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Xymox

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2019
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Wait...

This is for DOCSIS cable modems. VF CZ seems to also use celluar delivered systems. So the Intel/Broadcom discussion is very different for celluar systems.
 

Xymox

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2019
328
268
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www.appletvx.com
It looks like ALL the DOCSIS cable modems for VF CZ are Puma based :( At least the ones on this link as supported.

This is common sadly worldwide. The Puma chips are nearly free making the modems MUCH cheaper.

There is also some debate that the Intel Atom CPU in the PUMA 6 and 7 SoIC allows code to be run that might allow government interception and this might be motivational for some countries. So some countries might be locked into Pumas for this reason. BUT that is just a rumor.

 

gfroman

Well-Known Member
Dec 28, 2012
461
552
1,150
Would love to turn off WiFi for the improvement in sound, but we have too many items that rely on WiFi.
Video doorbell, iPhones.
 

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