Great mud slinging going on. I'm enjoying this. The messenger has been flogged. Supporters attacked. Such good stuff.
darTZeel out of business?
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LoL
Pure conjecture. DTZ will be fine. Consider that it could be a group of companies that need to restructure part of it, for whatever reason.
I have no doubt that DTZ will continue in one form or another and that present owners will continue to be covered for repairs, etc.
Pure conjecture. DTZ will be fine. Consider that it could be a group of companies that need to restructure part of it, for whatever reason.
I have no doubt that DTZ will continue in one form or another and that present owners will continue to be covered for repairs, etc.
No one has blamed Ron yet. Ron posted a after show video and didn't like Dartzeel. That was the end for poor Herve and his company.
You keep saying it is fine. The website is not working fine. Any potential buyer of their amps cannot find the info in their website. How can it be fine?
Like most countries, Switzerland has complex rules about trading whilst insolvent. If as reported they manufacture batches when they have enough orders, who would pay a deposit now? If DZ is insolvent, the owner may have personal liability if continuing to trade.
When companies get into trouble this is the first thing the directors seek advice on. Can I continue to trade? How does it affect me? They tend to be more worried about themselves than their creditors.
So I might buy an ex-demo or used one, I wouldn't pay a deposit for a new one (even if possible).
This happened to us. My wife chose a wedding dress, made to order, we paid quite a lot of money, the company went bust and it turned out they'd just taken the money and never even bought the fabric. So we ended up paying for two wedding dresses! That was 31 years ago and thankfully not had to buy another one since.
If you want a good read about going bust, and it's not my normal read, I very much enjoyed Michael Lewis' "Going Infinite" about Sam Bankman-Fried and FTX.
Sorry for the posts - I'm home alone, got flu, can't listen to music as my ears are blocked!
If you read further in the attached link it talks about amortization of the loan which I presume means that scheduled payments were due during the loan duration and that these weren't end of term lump sum playoffs. I only posted it since in Jay's video Herve mentions in his email response about installment payments and that maybe he was referring to these amortization payments.
welcome Herve, to What's Best Forum.
we are having a party in your honor.
best regards, Mike
Not for nothing but clicking the button doesn't seem to provide product info for a potential customer which is what he was alluding to
Thanks @all2ofme !POST UPDATED with some clarifications after a good find from @matthias (Thank you.)
I wrote that post on the dCS forum. Thanks for linking to it, @buzzlulu
Since I figure cross-posting mightn't make for simple reading and discussion, here's a repurposed version for WBF.
I'm a happy owner of an NHB-18NS and NHB-108 Model Two...with a strong desire to own a pair of NHB-468s one day. I've not heard better amplifiers, and I did much, much listening when I went shopping. If there's substance to these darTZeel stories I'll be gutted for everyone involved. I trust more detail will come out in due course if it has to. Switzerland doesn't strike me as a place you can dodge things. The cop who stopped me at the bottom of the Flüela Pass left me in no doubt about that: "You speed, we take your car."
BUT. My opinion — perhaps contentious — is that "it's my job" is only part of it, Roy, and that the fuller picture is a bit more interesting.
It seems bonkers to me that you feel it's ok to lob a post about darTZeel going out of business into the forums when the PR company you work for (Marketing Effects) represents CH Precision and Wadax and that the same PR company helped “launch a range of revolutionary new digital electronics products.”
Better yet — your wife Louise Ford, is Director of that same PR company and claims on her LinkedIn page to have managed the Spanish company’s “Product Launch Plan” including “managing the press review process”. Presumably some examples of that press review process management are the overwhelmingly positive reviews here and here and here.
I'm not comfortable with how all of that sits in terms of conflicts of interest. You and Louise both work for the same company, have commercial ties to darTZeel competitors (CH Precision and Wadax at least) and are even married. For me, that warrants rather more than the mention at the bottom of the intro page linked to from the GY8 homepage.
Maybe the regular members here knew this. I did not. And there isn't any mention of affiliations with either CH Precision or Wadax on any of the relevant reviews. My opinion is that when you're posting something with potential ramifications like the darTZeel rumour you should declare any conflicts of interest there and then, not assume people will find them on a page on another site.
Reminds me of Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy:
“But the plans were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.’”
Hold on, back that truck up!
So @RoyGregory, whom I have always respected as an independent and objective journalist, has actually been working for the last 13 years for a PR company that represents CH Precision (darTZeel competitor?) and Wadax?? And then he just happens to fire a PR torpedo (however justified) at darTZeel, who just happens to be a competitor to CH Precision, whom his wife just happens to represent (and who therefore pays his family's electricity bills???). And who discloses this "potential" conflict of interests a couple of clicks down on his own website but not (as far as I can see) in any of his gushing reviews for aforementioned brands or on the forum where he fires aforementioned PR torpedo??? And then WBF Co-owners like @Ron Resnick thank him for it?????
"I'm a journalist: its' my job!"??
or
"I'm a PR consultant and my wife's and my company makes its living by representing darTZeel's competitors,. It's my job!"???
I may be old fashioned but surely any journalist worth his name declines opportunities to review products in which he (or his immediate family) has vested financial interests? Even in the slightly dubious case that he entertains such reviews he should surely declare such vested interests very clearly in each such review (and PR torpedo)?? [apologies for the exclusive use of the male genus here, no sexism implied]
I am re-reading Roy's reviews of Wadax equipment that @all2ofme links above (that I read with great interest back in the day as I live in a country/market so small that such products are never likely to be available here for demo) in the new light of the fact that his wife was actually paid for securing such reviews, and I have to say that it casts the florid and hyperbolic prose in a completely different light.
@RoyGregory, I hope you can set the record straight here because in this light your "lower than a snake's belly" comments look, well, slightly hypocritical. I hope I have got this whole thing upside down.
Declaration of interests: I am a darTZeel owner and happy customer. I have had a couple of minor interactions with Hervé, who has always responded quickly and helpfully to my questions. I have auditioned all the "eligible candidates" available to me here and in my limited experience nothing else comes close. I have no regrets about my decision, this is probably my end-game amplification and as such I have no plans to sell, so any precipitous decline in residual values is no real biggie for me.
“The Corporate Health Check-Up”
When rumors spread that Acme Solutions was in trouble, everyone suddenly became a self-proclaimed business doctor. Diagnoses were flying everywhere.
“Classic cash flow anemia,” declared Phil from Accounting. “Too much outgoing, not enough incoming. You gotta boost the financial immune system with some liquidity supplements.”
“Nah,” said Karen from HR, shaking her head. “This is obviously a severe case of Employee Engagement Deficiency. Symptoms include burnout, ghosting meetings, and random Slack channels titled ‘Escape Plan.’”
The Operations Manager, Steve, went darker. “I think it’s Acute Supply Chain Syndrome. Got clogged ports and backordered widgets. It’s like corporate cholesterol—you don’t notice until it’s fatal.”
Meanwhile, over in Marketing, people blamed “Brand Fatigue” and demanded an immediate rebranding—preferably with a new color palette and a Helvetica font revival.
But the wildest theory came from IT. “Listen,” whispered Doug, “I’ve seen this before. They switched CRMs six months ago. That’s when it all started. It’s like switching to a gluten-free diet—sounds healthy, but it wrecks your system.”
While everyone speculated, the CEO calmly addressed the team: “Look, folks. We’re not dying. We had a tough quarter. But we’ve got a plan, and we’re tightening the belt—not choking on it.”
Naturally, no one believed him. Phil muttered, “Sounds like denial… textbook case.” Steve nodded knowingly. “Bet it’s terminal.”
Moral of the story: When a company sneezes, everyone assumes it’s the plague—even though it might just need a nap and some coffee.
When rumors spread that Acme Solutions was in trouble, everyone suddenly became a self-proclaimed business doctor. Diagnoses were flying everywhere.
“Classic cash flow anemia,” declared Phil from Accounting. “Too much outgoing, not enough incoming. You gotta boost the financial immune system with some liquidity supplements.”
“Nah,” said Karen from HR, shaking her head. “This is obviously a severe case of Employee Engagement Deficiency. Symptoms include burnout, ghosting meetings, and random Slack channels titled ‘Escape Plan.’”
The Operations Manager, Steve, went darker. “I think it’s Acute Supply Chain Syndrome. Got clogged ports and backordered widgets. It’s like corporate cholesterol—you don’t notice until it’s fatal.”
Meanwhile, over in Marketing, people blamed “Brand Fatigue” and demanded an immediate rebranding—preferably with a new color palette and a Helvetica font revival.
But the wildest theory came from IT. “Listen,” whispered Doug, “I’ve seen this before. They switched CRMs six months ago. That’s when it all started. It’s like switching to a gluten-free diet—sounds healthy, but it wrecks your system.”
While everyone speculated, the CEO calmly addressed the team: “Look, folks. We’re not dying. We had a tough quarter. But we’ve got a plan, and we’re tightening the belt—not choking on it.”
Naturally, no one believed him. Phil muttered, “Sounds like denial… textbook case.” Steve nodded knowingly. “Bet it’s terminal.”
Moral of the story: When a company sneezes, everyone assumes it’s the plague—even though it might just need a nap and some coffee.
@struts summed things up nicely in post #210.
Attacking Roy Gregory for direct conflicts of interest and hypocrisy. All good.welcome Herve, to What's Best Forum.
we are having a party in your honor.
best regards, Mike
Folks defending Roy because they like him. OK
Financial comments ranging from insightful to crazy. I like crazy so keep it up.
And my personal favorite, the company Roy and his wife list on LinkedIn, Marketing Effects Ltd. was dissolved in 2019. It’s 2024 folks.
All in all, one heck of a party carry on.
Happy DarTZeel owner as well. What @struts and @all2ofme said sums it up perfectly.
The conflict of interest on this one stinks to high hell.
While we are at it, I am a relatively new member on WBF due to my new ownership of DarTZeel. I have, however, been a 25 year esteemed member of the Naim forum (and owner of said gear).
There is a reason dealers on the Naim forum are required to identify themselves (same here) however are EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED from hawking they're own gear. Not so here - unfortunately imho.
The conflict of interest on this one stinks to high hell.
While we are at it, I am a relatively new member on WBF due to my new ownership of DarTZeel. I have, however, been a 25 year esteemed member of the Naim forum (and owner of said gear).
There is a reason dealers on the Naim forum are required to identify themselves (same here) however are EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED from hawking they're own gear. Not so here - unfortunately imho.
We need a new thread on Roy and revewers and conflicts of interest.
I have posted consistently that darTZeel is one of my two or three favorite sounding solid-state amplifiers.
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I am pretty sure that any vendor that is given the green light to tout their own product(s) here on WBF is required to pay the piper in one form or another.
If anyone can set the record straight on this, please do, although I don’t think it’s a secret.
Looking at the Dartzeel situation and drawing from my experience in restructuring, I can only conclude that something serious is happening with the company, and it doesn’t appear to be a voluntary decision by its owner. Roy did a service by publishing the news, as it raised awareness of an issue that is crucial for stakeholders, who are often the ones hurt in such cases—specifically customers without insider knowledge, like us. Possibly even distributors and dealers outside the inner circle. What if they have paid for Dartzeel products in the past few weeks, and if things go wrong, they may neither receive their Dartzeel equipment nor get their money back, as it would be tied up in possible bankruptcy proceedings? These uninformed parties are often the ones who lose out financially in such situations.
What’s clearly lacking from Hervé is transparent communication. His statements are too vague and don’t provide any real information. In such dramatic situations, it’s crucial for a company to be fully transparent. They should either factually deny Roy’s claims or present concrete facts, so that all stakeholders have the same level of information on which to base their future decisions. These processes aren’t about emotions—they are legal matters, driven by provable facts.
I really like Dartzeel, but the way they are handling this crisis is completely wrong. It’s likely not helping Hervé’s future endeavors either.
What’s clearly lacking from Hervé is transparent communication. His statements are too vague and don’t provide any real information. In such dramatic situations, it’s crucial for a company to be fully transparent. They should either factually deny Roy’s claims or present concrete facts, so that all stakeholders have the same level of information on which to base their future decisions. These processes aren’t about emotions—they are legal matters, driven by provable facts.
I really like Dartzeel, but the way they are handling this crisis is completely wrong. It’s likely not helping Hervé’s future endeavors either.
The best post on this topic until now, I agree completely.
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