darTZeel out of business?

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True, but the prices on their gear were beyond absurd. It didn’t offer value for the high prices and so you can only find so many customers for products like this. They better reinvent themselves or they will be gone.
I hear you, but I would say that at around $35-40k USD for the preamp and amp, they are very competitively priced. I wouldn't know what else is comparable. Perhaps CH Precision, but I have heard they are not as musical.

In any case, it does seem like DarTZeel will be coming out with lower priced components.

This is the classic economic debate of volume vs price:
Take the 108 amp, which retails for about $50k USD (I think this is the price in most parts of the world).
DarTZeel the company gets about half of this, so $25k.
Their costs are probably $5-$10k. I don't have any specific knowledge of DartZeel's costs; but this is the norm for the industry (a 5-10X multiple on cost to the dealer/distributor).

What would happen if DarTZeel sold the same component direct to customers for $10-$20k? Would the increased volume make up for the lower profit? I bet it would!
 
I hear you, but I would say that at around $35-40k USD for the preamp and amp, they are very competitively priced. I wouldn't know what else is comparable. Perhaps CH Precision, but I have heard they are not as musical.

In any case, it does seem like DarTZeel will be coming out with lower priced components.

This is the classic economic debate of volume vs price:
Take the 108 amp, which retails for about $50k USD (I think this is the price in most parts of the world).
DarTZeel the company gets about half of this, so $25k.
Their costs are probably $5-$10k. I don't have any specific knowledge of DartZeel's costs; but this is the norm for the industry (a 5-10X multiple on cost to the dealer/distributor).

What would happen if DarTZeel sold the same component direct to customers for $10-$20k? Would the increased volume make up for the lower profit? I bet it would!
What would be really nice if Mr Herve D, who clearly has a flair for making consumer audio products, surprises the market with something attractive that represents good value without dealers having to haggle with customers and knock him for retrospective discounts.

One killer product would be good, cost-effective production and take it from there.

I own a Luxman L-509X. It's an astonishingly good integrated amplifier with great pre-amp section, great functionality, two pairs of balanced inputs and it can almost cope with the 2.3 ohm impedance of Wilson Sabrina. My Gryphon does a better job, and the Class A adds something to the party, but it shows how good the Luxman is. In Japan the L-509Z latest model costs ¥990,000, that's £5,100 or $6,600. Overseas prices are double and it's still probably without equal. The Luxman casework puts most high-end companies to shame, the whole thing is finely machined aluminium.

No small producer can compete with that Luxman sort of efficiency and pricing, so they have to work on their strengths and come up with something special.
 
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Good answer Elliott. I miss your original Front Row Center store in Boca. I remember the big Genesis speakers which were incredible with your Spectral electronics.

Best i heard WA was on Spectral at Front row center ..
 
Logic dictates that the current owners are significantly biased in their responses to be really supportive in order to minimise their losses on what has transpired.no one likes losing money it goes to their core. So the only true measure of how many believes Herve here is those who place new orders.
I've never bought hifi on the basis of potential resale value. I buy things on the basis that the money is spent and I will never get a penny back. So if I spend $10,000 on an amplifier, I don't think - well, I might be able to sell it for 7k, so it's costing me 3k. I simply ask myself, am I OK with spending 10K on this amplifier?

So I don't agree with HD on this, he talks about hifi as an investment, to me it's a luxury, a hobby - discretionary expenditure that I never expect anything back except pleasure.

if you have a DZ amplifier and it gives great listening pleasure, even if resale value plummets, why lose sleep over that if you're not going to sell it?

I was thinking of @orenatt in Israel and his potential purchase of a pair of DZ amplifiers. My wife is in Tel Aviv at the moment (most of my family live there, many born there), she was in a nice restaurant today with her parents, it's her mother's 81st birthday today. The place was buzzing, the attitude seems to be live for today because tomorrow may never come, which quite literally is the case. I remember that attitude from the 1970s, I was in Israel in the YK War, and my son has been through it this time, he's been living there 4 years. My grandmother told me it was much the same in London in 1940 in the Blitz. It's an attitude very different worrying about pensions and investments for when you're 85.

There seems to me to be too much concern with money. If you spent $100,000 on an amplifier and the financial implications cause you to worry or lose sleep, perhaps you shouldn't have bought it.

I remember a client who was a wedding planner. In that business the first thing the parents ask is "how much will it cost?". It is purgatory from there on. He just oozed charm, sold the product not the price, and had a reputation for bedding the mother of the bride. Remarkably frequently. That completely distracted from financial considerations. He was a very successful wedding planner.
 
I hear you, but I would say that at around $35-40k USD for the preamp and amp, they are very competitively priced. I wouldn't know what else is comparable. Perhaps CH Precision, but I have heard they are not as musical.

In any case, it does seem like DarTZeel will be coming out with lower priced components.

This is the classic economic debate of volume vs price:
Take the 108 amp, which retails for about $50k USD (I think this is the price in most parts of the world).
DarTZeel the company gets about half of this, so $25k.
Their costs are probably $5-$10k. I don't have any specific knowledge of DartZeel's costs; but this is the norm for the industry (a 5-10X multiple on cost to the dealer/distributor).

What would happen if DarTZeel sold the same component direct to customers for $10-$20k? Would the increased volume make up for the lower profit? I bet it would!
McIntosh is a much better option and don’t tell me it’s not “musical” because it is; especially what I bought. Dart has monoblocks for $250k. This is insane
 
You seem to be either not reading or not comprehending what Hervé has said. Why is that?
They are not out of business.
They are still making all the products

I am an owner, so this affects me as it hurts resale significantly.

If you believe in the fact that Dart is an ongoing business than why should this issue give you any concern about resale value as the issue will pass and resolve itself. Now, if you are considering selling your Dart equipment immediately because of this issue that may be a different matter.Or might your concern be that if the ongoing concern shifts to a revised lineup of lower cost offerings that it will impact the brand and result in lower resale for legacy models?
What would happen if DarTZeel sold the same component direct to customers for $10-$20k? Would the increased volume make up for the lower profit? I bet it would!
It would appear that Herve doesn't see those economics or he would/could shift to that distribution model with the current lineup. And, if he did that wouldn't bode well for your concern about resale for current owners
 
Maybe it is time to stop calling hi-end items instruments, power button as power nose and volume control as pleasure control.
This hippie flower power nomenclature isn’t funny now…
For all rich music lovers….

Like BMW Motorrad calling Self-cancelling turn signals, "Comfort Signals"... :rolleyes:
 
Well you just called most of the posters in this thread cowards....you are off to a great start.....
Considering the number of reviewers I’ve called sheep over the years face to face I don’t think it’s a big deal.
 
New business model for DarTZeel's forthcoming low end line - buy up those $800 Aliexpress amps and resell for 15k
I think Mark Levinson tried that model once too :p
 
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I think Mark Levinson tried that model once too :p
And that’s why their products under Harmon are mostly not relevant in the high end now
 
Seems like no one has been able to produce any hard facts (unless I missed it painfully going through these 300+ posts. Seems like both sides have given their point of view (aka - speculating, extrapolating, hypothesizing, theorizing, AKA - opinion) ad nauseam.

I got a novel idea - lets just all take a deep breath until we have more information than we have now. That way, the people who are vested in Dartzeel now or in the future can make their own educated decision.

For the rest of you, I honestly don't have any suggestions for you (as if you care), so I guess just keep doing what your doing. I do enjoy (to a point) both point of views, but at this point I'd venture to say that horse has been thoroughly beat to death...
With that said? Let's roll with it.

If anyone with evidence otherwise brings something to the table? Present it.

Otherwise, let's let this rest.

Tom
 
I've never bought hifi on the basis of potential resale value.

Why in the hell would you?

My apologies and my manners. I just so happen to agree with you here. It's never about resale....It's about what the gear offers you. When you kick the bucket? You can't take it with you, so enjoy the best you can afford or design until then.

Tom
 
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