darTZeel out of business?

[Another Johnson]

After 12 pages of discussion, there’s still no clear answer on whether darTZell is out of business or not. The only reasonable conclusion seems to be that darTZell is either on the brink of bankruptcy or has already gone under. If the company were doing fine, we’d have seen an immediate response from darTZell and its distributor, loudly denying the rumors. Instead, there’s silence and a long, vague statement full of nonsense. The bottom line is, any thriving company falsely accused of bankruptcy would be quick to shout, ‘That’s a lie!’

Anything coming from darTZell side other than ‘That’s a lie’ about this situation and rumors means rumor is true. If somebody is fabricating serious rumors about a company requires a clear statement. Sorry the rest is meaningless and BS.

P.S. I don’t say either part is right, I only say be straight with us.

I’ve often wondered about the reading comprehension of some posters.

The signature of many members ought to be “I never lie. And I’m always right.” This quote comes from a Firesign Theater skit on their album “Don’t Crush That Dwarf. Hand Me The Pliers.”

My heart goes out to HD. There are several here who won’t be satisfied until they have a head on a stick. Leave DTZ alone unless you are personally getting screwed somehow. DH has not stiffed anybody.

RG, on the other hand …. As old as he is, he should have known what would come from his “journalism” about DTZ. With his connections to competitors, it smells funny. Not the good kind of funny.

 

[gleeds]

I have known Herve for 15 years and, through the years, purchased his products for clients through my departed friend and colleague Jonathan Tinn. Herve has always been a man of his word and a passionate contributor to the art of sound reproduction in the home. Regardless of any changes occurring in DartZeel's business model, I take Herve at his word, especially concerning the lengths he will go to ensure DarTZeel owners are supported with the same care they always have.

Best of luck on the road ahead, Herve!

 

[Lagonda]

If you are in the same HiFi sector and the companies are so close together, you are almost bound to run into each other. A friendship is probably not out of the question.

View attachment 138189

They probably have a cartel, where they meet quarterly to keep audio prices as high as possible !

 

[Lagonda]

At the risk of being accused of not being a regular enough poster here to have any right to comment, is it not remotely possible that RG may in fact be correct? In which case, as a self proclaimed "journalist", perhaps he felt it was his responsibility to inform his readership. Dartzeel and RG can't both be right. Presumably there will be documents which will support one or other. I'm not entirely sure why some here seem to think they have the right to see those documents. I get the need for existing owners to feel supported . And prospective owners need to feel as if they're not inconsiderable investment will to some extent be supported as well. But owning a product doesn't ( IMO) give you the right to know all the ins and outs of the company's business. IMO, this has now come down to the credibility of a journalist vs that of an audio company. All will be revealed in time - these things usually are. ARC , Shindo...

I personally don't care about RG's reasons for posting, if there is any semblance of truth to his post, wich there obviously is, he did potential customers a favor !

 

[Lee]

I’ve often wondered about the reading comprehension of some posters.

The signature of many members ought to be “I never lie. And I’m always right.” This quote comes from a Firesign Theater skit on their album “Don’t Crush That Dwarf. Hand Me The Pliers.”

My heart goes out to HD. There are several here who won’t be satisfied until they have a head on a stick. Leave DTZ alone unless you are personally getting screwed somehow. DH has not stiffed anybody.

RG, on the other hand …. As old as he is, he should have known what would come from his “journalism” about DTZ. With his connections to competitors, it smells funny. Not the good kind of funny.

I have the Mofi CD of that Firesign performance, lol.

 

[Another Johnson]

I personally don't care about RG's reasons for posting, if there is any semblance of truth to his post, wich there obviously is, he did potential customers a favor !

Did he do any favors to the existing customers? Did he do any favors to help the company remain viable for past and future customers? No and no.

He “did a favor” to potential customers who did not make a deposit, and would have found out about the wait when their interest turned serious. In other words he warned people to skip considering DTZ.

There was no favor done here. It is just the schadenfreude that drives many of the geese here who have NO SKIN IN THE DarTZeel game. Same kind of bs surrounded the ARC restructuring.

 

[Lagonda]

Did he do any favors to the existing customers? Did he do any favors to help the company remain viable for past and future customers? No and no.

He “did a favor” to potential customers who did not make a deposit, and would have found out about the wait when their interest turned serious. In other words he warned people to skip considering DTZ.

There was no favor done here. It is just the schadenfreude that drives many of the geese here who have NO SKIN IN THE DarTZeel game. Same kind of bs surrounded the ARC restructuring.

No he did not, and it is not his job, he let the cat out of the bag. Existing customers already made their choices when they bought a very expensive boutique product from a small company, things can go very wrong. Keeping the whole affair secret might help existing customers and retailers unload their product, but burns new customers. The whole thing is educational, be careful where you place you very expensive orders, do they have large stock of the parts they might need for repair and manufacturing in the future ? Will they be around ? As a former Krell customer i have seen this play out before, even a recapitalized company might not be able to make your repairs in the future.

 

[Zeotrope]

No he did not, and it is not his job, he let the cat out of the bag. Existing customers already made their choices when they bought a very expensive boutique product from a small company, things can go very wrong. Keeping the whole affair secret might help existing customers and retailers unload their product, but burns new customers. The whole thing is educational, be careful where you place you very expensive orders, do they have large stock of the parts they might need for repair and manufacturing in the future ? Will they be around ? As a former Krell customer i have seen this play out before, even a recapitalized company might not be able to make your repairs in the future.

You seem to be either not reading or not comprehending what Hervé has said. Why is that?
They are not out of business.
They are still making all the products.
They are taking care of existing customers.

This is ALL ANY company can say, really.

Why not stop spreading Bull-SH-T scare tactics??
Companies get recapped all the time, have you heard of GM? Last I checked, they can still service your Cadillac Cimarron.

 

[Maril555]

I wouldn't be sur

They probably have a cartel, where they meet quarterly to keep audio prices as high as possible !

I wouldn't be surprised

 

[NC Lee]

POST UPDATED with some clarifications after a good find from @matthias (Thank you.)

I wrote that post on the dCS forum. Thanks for linking to it, @buzzlulu

Since I figure cross-posting mightn't make for simple reading and discussion, here's a repurposed version for WBF.

I'm a happy owner of an NHB-18NS and NHB-108 Model Two...with a strong desire to own a pair of NHB-468s one day. I've not heard better amplifiers, and I did much, much listening when I went shopping. If there's substance to these darTZeel stories I'll be gutted for everyone involved. I trust more detail will come out in due course if it has to. Switzerland doesn't strike me as a place you can dodge things. The cop who stopped me at the bottom of the Flüela Pass left me in no doubt about that: "You speed, we take your car."

BUT. My opinion — perhaps contentious — is that "it's my job" is only part of it, Roy, and that the fuller picture is a bit more interesting.

It seems bonkers to me that you feel it's ok to lob a post about darTZeel going out of business into the forums when the PR company you work for (Marketing Effects) represents CH Precision and Wadax and that the same PR company helped “launch a range of revolutionary new digital electronics products.”

Better yet — your wife Louise Ford, is Director of that same PR company and claims on her LinkedIn page to have managed the Spanish company’s “Product Launch Plan” including “managing the press review process”. Presumably some examples of that press review process management are the overwhelmingly positive reviews here and here and here.

I'm not comfortable with how all of that sits in terms of conflicts of interest. You and Louise both work for the same company, have commercial ties to darTZeel competitors (CH Precision and Wadax at least) and are even married. For me, that warrants rather more than the mention at the bottom of the intro page linked to from the GY8 homepage.

Maybe the regular members here knew this. I did not. And there isn't any mention of affiliations with either CH Precision or Wadax on any of the relevant reviews. My opinion is that when you're posting something with potential ramifications like the darTZeel rumour you should declare any conflicts of interest there and then, not assume people will find them on a page on another site.

Reminds me of Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy:
“But the plans were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.’”

"My opinion is that when you're posting something with potential ramifications like the darTZeel rumour you should declare any conflicts of interest there"
Seems to me, if you are going to publicly call someone out as dishonest, you'll have strong and convincing evidence before doing so. If you are wrong you owe Gregory and us an apology.

Happy DarTZeel owner as well. What @struts and @all2ofme said sums it up perfectly.

The conflict of interest on this one stinks to high hell.

While we are at it, I am a relatively new member on WBF due to my new ownership of DarTZeel. I have, however, been a 25 year esteemed member of the Naim forum (and owner of said gear).

There is a reason dealers on the Naim forum are required to identify themselves (same here) however are EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED from hawking they're own gear. Not so here - unfortunately imho.

"a 25 year esteemed member of the Naim forum" Esteemed just by yourself or also others?

 

[Lagonda]

You seem to be either not reading or not comprehending what Hervé has said. Why is that?
They are not out of business.
They are still making all the products.
They are taking care of existing customers.

This is ALL ANY company can say, really.

Why not stop spreading Bull-SH-T scare tactics??
Companies get recapped all the time, have you heard of GM? Last I checked, they can still service your Cadillac Cimarron.

Stick your head in the sand all you want, i don't care one way or another if the company is around after all this settles. There are obviously some serious problems with finances in the company. Please put your money where your mouth is, and place your orders for new product.

 

[NC Lee]

I’ve often wondered about the reading comprehension of some posters.

The signature of many members ought to be “I never lie. And I’m always right.” This quote comes from a Firesign Theater skit on their album “Don’t Crush That Dwarf. Hand Me The Pliers.”

My heart goes out to HD. There are several here who won’t be satisfied until they have a head on a stick. Leave DTZ alone unless you are personally getting screwed somehow. DH has not stiffed anybody.

RG, on the other hand …. As old as he is, he should have known what would come from his “journalism” about DTZ. With his connections to competitors, it smells funny. Not the good kind of funny.

“I never lie. And I’m always right.”
My favorite: Often wrong, never in doubt.
I really like those deflections changing the subject to the OP rather than his point. Some of the defenders own the product and are accusing others of bias. I'm not buying the "Gregory posted this for personal gain" bit. And the company's lack of clarity is deafening.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Maybe a bit of both , ehhh ..!

 

[Tascam]

Oh please don't gaslight me or anyone else. I am not responsible for anyone but me. I knew his WIFE worked with some audio companies . I don't think this was a secret nor a clandestine conflict. I do like and respect Roy and enjoy talking with him at shows. I don't know what you are trying to say nor do I or anyone else answer to you.
Please tell us the benefits to any of those companies. DZ is a tiny company and if they leave the market , which I hope they don't, I don't see any benefit to anyone. When ARC had problems other tube companies didn't have their sales explode. In my opinion your comment is absurd since when anyone goes out it is bad for the entire Industry, I am sure you have no idea how many pieces DZ sells a year and the removal of such will boost CH sales in any significant way is really a stretch.
These are all small companies this is not Sony going out so Samsung wins. Its not Coke and Pepsi.
Please have a cocktail and leave your troubles behind the world as we know it will survive, the sun will rise tomorrow and there are much greater issues that should concern us all.

Good answer Elliott. I miss your original Front Row Center store in Boca. I remember the big Genesis speakers which were incredible with your Spectral electronics.

 

[plasmod3]

Uhoh....I just ran out of popcorn....bummer

Just curious, since all of these started who has actually put their hand in where their mouth is and ordered a new dartzeel? I hope I am not being met with silence.surely a dealer or a customer has at least ordered one? Hands up pls

 

[Zeotrope]

Uhoh....I just ran out of popcorn....bummer

Just curious, since all of these started who has actually put their hand in where their mouth is and ordered a new dartzeel? I hope I am not being met with silence.surely a dealer or a customer has at least ordered one? Hands up pls

Why should anyone 'put their hands up' and tell you?
I am an owner, so this affects me as it hurts resale significantly.
I have only great things to say about Herve and the brand. The instruments sound fantastic in my (very revealing) system. Hervé's customer service and desire to make his owners happy is second to none.

I could care less that you are obviously enjoying reading about others' hardship. +1 for the Ignore list.
Man, one good thing out of all this is that it helps me cull the list of valueless posts.
We do not owe you anything, brother.

 

[Tascam]

Why should anyone 'put their hands up' and tell you?
I am an owner, so this affects me as it hurts resale significantly.
I have only great things to say about Herve and the brand. The instruments sound fantastic in my (very revealing) system. Hervé's customer service and desire to make his owners happy is second to none.

I could care less that you are obviously enjoying reading about others' hardship. +1 for the Ignore list.
Man, one good thing out of all this is that it helps me cull the list of valueless posts.
We do not owe you anything, brother.

True, but the prices on their gear were beyond absurd. It didn’t offer value for the high prices and so you can only find so many customers for products like this. They better reinvent themselves or they will be gone.

 

[plasmod3]

Why should anyone 'put their hands up' and tell you?
I am an owner, so this affects me as it hurts resale significantly.
I have only great things to say about Herve and the brand. The instruments sound fantastic in my (very revealing) system. Hervé's customer service and desire to make his owners happy is second to none.

I could care less that you are obviously enjoying reading about others' hardship. +1 for the Ignore list.
Man, one good thing out of all this is that it helps me cull the list of valueless posts.
We do not owe you anything, brother.

Logic dictates that the current owners are significantly biased in their responses to be really supportive in order to minimise their losses on what has transpired.no one likes losing money it goes to their core. So the only true measure of how many believes Herve here is those who place new orders.

 

[elrod]

Seems like no one has been able to produce any hard facts (unless I missed it painfully going through these 300+ posts. Seems like both sides have given their point of view (aka - speculating, extrapolating, hypothesizing, theorizing, AKA - opinion) ad nauseam.

I got a novel idea - lets just all take a deep breath until we have more information than we have now. That way, the people who are vested in Dartzeel now or in the future can make their own educated decision.

For the rest of you, I honestly don't have any suggestions for you (as if you care), so I guess just keep doing what your doing. I do enjoy (to a point) both point of views, but at this point I'd venture to say that horse has been thoroughly beat to death...

 

[Elliot G.]

Good answer Elliott. I miss your original Front Row Center store in Boca. I remember the big Genesis speakers which were incredible with your Spectral electronics.

It was a lot more fun and simpler just a few years back for sure. Thanks BTW