darTZeel out of business?

[facten]

Per Baker & Mckenzie's outline on the Swiss Covid Loan Program

Two types of loans are available under the
Swiss COVID-19 loan programme: COVID-
light loans with a principal amount of up to
CHF500,000 and COVID-plus loans with a
principal amount of up to CHF20m, in each
case capped at an amount equal to 10% of the
applicant’s annual turnover. Both types of loans
are provided via the Swiss banking system and
secured by sureties of the Swiss Confederation.
Each loan has a term of five years, which may
be extended by up to two years if repayment
at the original maturity date would result in
considerable hardship for the borrower.

https://www.bakermckenzie.com/-/media/files/people/wolf-markus/jibfl-swiss-covid-loan-programme.pdf

Perhaps this is what is essentially referenced as installment payments in Jay's video


@RoyGregory "It is the result of a legal process in the Swiss courts, the outcome of which is widely known, certainly throughout the European high-end"

Roy, do you have access to the actual legal document or other formal public disclosure specifying the outcome? If so, can you link the disclosure?

 

[germinal]

In these days of click-bait, conspiracy theories and fake-news, it’s hardly surprising that I’ve been ascribed all kinds of motives and agendas in ‘outing’ the financial situation at Dartzeel. As usual, the truth is a lot simpler.

I’m a journalist: it’s my job!

This is information, not a rumour or speculation. It is the result of a legal process in the Swiss courts, the outcome of which is widely known, certainly throughout the European high-end: This is not repeating gossip, but reporting a matter of record known to multiple sources and yet, one that neither the manufacturer nor their agents were talking about.

Nor are the reasons behind it particularly hard to fathom. Global uncertainty over wars in the Ukraine and Middle-East have squeezed customer confidence and shrunk demand for high-end audio products. At the same time, the Swiss Franc is riding high, making Swiss products progressively more expensive in international markets – and foreign products cheaper in the Swiss domestic market. For a company producing a small number of really expensive units, that’s a perfect storm.

Why bring up the situation at Dartzeel now and in the way I did?

The judgement has been in place for weeks. Unless the company can meet its obligations, it will be liquidated. Although the brand name itself might continue unaffected, the company itself cannot, at least in its current form. This immediately calls into question continued access to original parts and metalwork essential to on-going servicing of existing products. It calls into question whether any ‘new’ Dartzeel will honour existing warranties. It calls into question whether current re-sellers will be willing or able to service and support existing products. None of this is good new for the resale value of demonstration, stock or pre-owned units. Residual values are likely to plummet.

Posting on WBF was a deliberate choice, giving the manufacturer and their agents a chance to come clean and clarify the on-going situation. We have seen how that worked out.

Silence or obfuscation on this subject serves only one group of people: those with Dartzeel equipment (new or used) that they want or need to sell. But in protecting their investment they are preying on purchasers ignorant of the real situation. This is not good for those customers. It is not good for the industry as a whole. But it is also not a conspiracy. It’s simply a bunch of individuals with shared interests, all opting to take the same stance. In an industry where there is no office of professional standards, it’s a depressing sight.

So perhaps the questions we should be asking are, what does this tell us about those re-sellers who chose to keep silent and, what does it tell us about the journalists and magazines that chose not to report it or the opportunists who chose to exploit and sensationalise it? For some reason, the phrase “lower than a snake’s belly” keeps coming to mind…

Thank you.. finally a post that makes sense…

Not that it makes me happy ( because I own a so called “instrument” ) , but if you go bankrupt when selling these highly expensive units it only means one thing.. basically - besides the odd person here and there - nobody is buying Dartzeel.

 

[Elliot G.]

 

[buzzlulu]

Any comments to this highly interesting information in a post on the dCS forum?

Dartzeel out of business?

Context is always good — thanks, @keiserrg and @aublumberg — so I’ll add a bit more after some digging I did Seems bonkers to me that Roy Gregory can start a rumour like this about darTZeel going out of business when the PR company he works for (Marketing Effects) represents CH Precision and...

dcs.community

 

[all2ofme]

POST UPDATED with some clarifications after a good find from @matthias (Thank you.)

I wrote that post on the dCS forum. Thanks for linking to it, @buzzlulu

Since I figure cross-posting mightn't make for simple reading and discussion, here's a repurposed version for WBF.

I'm a happy owner of an NHB-18NS and NHB-108 Model Two...with a strong desire to own a pair of NHB-468s one day. I've not heard better amplifiers, and I did much, much listening when I went shopping. If there's substance to these darTZeel stories I'll be gutted for everyone involved. I trust more detail will come out in due course if it has to. Switzerland doesn't strike me as a place you can dodge things. The cop who stopped me at the bottom of the Flüela Pass left me in no doubt about that: "You speed, we take your car."

BUT. My opinion — perhaps contentious — is that "it's my job" is only part of it, Roy, and that the fuller picture is a bit more interesting.

It seems bonkers to me that you feel it's ok to lob a post about darTZeel going out of business into the forums when the PR company you work for (Marketing Effects) represents CH Precision and Wadax and that the same PR company helped “launch a range of revolutionary new digital electronics products.”

Better yet — your wife Louise Ford, is Director of that same PR company and claims on her LinkedIn page to have managed the Spanish company’s “Product Launch Plan” including “managing the press review process”. Presumably some examples of that press review process management are the overwhelmingly positive reviews here and here and here.

I'm not comfortable with how all of that sits in terms of conflicts of interest. You and Louise both work for the same company, have commercial ties to darTZeel competitors (CH Precision and Wadax at least) and are even married. For me, that warrants rather more than the mention at the bottom of the intro page linked to from the GY8 homepage.

Maybe the regular members here knew this. I did not. And there isn't any mention of affiliations with either CH Precision or Wadax on any of the relevant reviews. My opinion is that when you're posting something with potential ramifications like the darTZeel rumour you should declare any conflicts of interest there and then, not assume people will find them on a page on another site.

Reminds me of Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy:
“But the plans were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.’”

 

[dcc]

I wrote that post on the dCS forum. Thanks for linking to it, @buzzlulu

Since I figure cross-posting mightn't make for simple reading and discussion, here's a repurposed version for WBF.

I'm a happy owner of an NHB-18NS and NHB-108 Model Two...with a strong desire to own a pair of NHB-468s one day. I've not heard better amplifiers, and I did much, much listening when I went shopping. If there's substance to these darTZeel stories I'll be gutted for everyone involved. I trust more detail will come out in due course if it has to. Switzerland doesn't strike me as a place you can dodge things. The cop who stopped me at the bottom of the Flüela Pass left me in no doubt about that: "You speed, we take your car."

BUT. My opinion — perhaps contentious — is that "it's my job" is only part of it, Roy, and that the fuller picture is a bit more interesting.

It seems bonkers to me that you feel it's ok to lob a post about darTZeel going out of business into the forums when the PR company you appear to work for (Marketing Effects) represents CH Precision and “a Spanish electronics company” and that the same PR company helped “launch a range of revolutionary new digital electronics products.” (Who could that be? )

Better yet — Louise Ford, is Director of what appears to be that same PR company and claims on her LinkedIn page to have managed the Spanish company’s “Product Launch Plan” including “managing the press review process”. Presumably some examples of that press review process management are the overwhelmingly positive reviews here and here and here by people like yourself.

I'm not comfortable with how all of that sits in terms of conflicts of interest. You and Louise both work for the same company, have commercial ties to darTZeel competitors (CH Precision and Wadax at least) and even appear to be married. For me, that's not a description of the “independent” audio journalist I thought you were. Feels like it's covered by the new FTC rule that outlaws such things:



I can't find any mention of affiliations with either CH Precision or Wadax on any of the relevant reviews.

Could you explain how FTC rules would apply to someone who operates his business out of France?... just saying

 

[all2ofme]

Could you explain how FTC rules would apply to someone who operates his business out of France?... just saying

No idea at all!

 

[matthias]

I can't find any mention of affiliations with either CH Precision or Wadax on any of the relevant reviews.

Introduction - Gy8

gy8.eu

"And in the spirit of transparency…

My wife works as a marketing consultant and her clients currently include several audio companies. She works with CH Precision and Wadax. She worked in the past with Nordost. She is also an experienced listener and music lover (she owned a high-end system before we got together). Our work remains separate. She has her views and I have mine – unless that is, I want corroboration of some arcane tweak. In that case, if I can’t demonstrate it to her, it doesn’t get written about! Otherwise my views are very much my own and the only affect of her activities on mine is that I get to play with more equipment from the companies with which she works, more often and often earlier in the process, gaining a considerably greater insight into those products along the way."

 

[all2ofme]

Well found — thank you. Post updated.

 

[Synaxis]

No idea at all!

Generally speaking it does not.

BUT......

When I worked in digital marketing for a global medicine company, the FDA started telling us (illegally) that we needed to get our German subsidiary to stop promoting medicines on its German website as "someone from America may go to the German site, translate it, and then try and use the medicine for that".

Therefore the FDA started claiming worldwide global control. I actually wasted 2 years trying to deal with the idiots at the FDA. It was like talking to rocks.

We never ended up brining that medicine into the US to the loss of those who needed it.

This is a real lifer personal example, not a "I read it somewhere...."

We also wanted to change the colors on one of the boxes of our medicines to match the new corporate branding, the FDA demanded we spend millions to resubmit everything to them for them to simply approve the color change (the FDA has to approve the design, messaging and labeling down to the smallest detail on all packaging). It was a small-use medicine that didn't make that much profit in a year in the US, so we ended all production of that medicine due to the bureaucrats.

NEVER underestimate their desire and ability to give themselves more power.

 

[Charles S]

High end prices have become very difficult for the well heeled extremely well off audiophile. I would classify myself in this category. I don't consider myself wealthy. When I consider a purchase value is quite important. Even if I were in the "wealthy" category I wouldn't just buy the most expensive because it is the "most expensive". If your read the Stereophile review measurements of the latest DartZeel mono amp, it is not nearly as stout into low impedances as their previous amp was. I was quite surprised. Available watts in low impedances is IMO the single most important specification a power amp possesses. The competition for the ultra high end dollar is fierce. CH-Precision or Vitus for example will meet their specs and sound tremendous. Another company that has had tremendous price increases across the board Audio Research. I am sure their 330 mono is a great amp but at 90K, that's getting up there in the stratosphere for an amp weighing 101 pounds and has no 2-ohm tap. Their 160 mono has gone from 30K to 48K. I am rooting for ARC to make it, not so much DarTZeel. I suspect that all ARC amps will easily make their specs, especially their watts output. But these prices border on absurdity. We have had inflation absolutely, but not this much.

 

[Thundersnow]

In these days of click-bait, conspiracy theories and fake-news, it’s hardly surprising that I’ve been ascribed all kinds of motives and agendas in ‘outing’ the financial situation at Dartzeel. As usual, the truth is a lot simpler.

I’m a journalist: it’s my job!

This is information, not a rumour or speculation. It is the result of a legal process in the Swiss courts, the outcome of which is widely known, certainly throughout the European high-end: This is not repeating gossip, but reporting a matter of record known to multiple sources and yet, one that neither the manufacturer nor their agents were talking about.

Nor are the reasons behind it particularly hard to fathom. Global uncertainty over wars in the Ukraine and Middle-East have squeezed customer confidence and shrunk demand for high-end audio products. At the same time, the Swiss Franc is riding high, making Swiss products progressively more expensive in international markets – and foreign products cheaper in the Swiss domestic market. For a company producing a small number of really expensive units, that’s a perfect storm.

Why bring up the situation at Dartzeel now and in the way I did?

The judgement has been in place for weeks. Unless the company can meet its obligations, it will be liquidated. Although the brand name itself might continue unaffected, the company itself cannot, at least in its current form. This immediately calls into question continued access to original parts and metalwork essential to on-going servicing of existing products. It calls into question whether any ‘new’ Dartzeel will honour existing warranties. It calls into question whether current re-sellers will be willing or able to service and support existing products. None of this is good new for the resale value of demonstration, stock or pre-owned units. Residual values are likely to plummet.

Posting on WBF was a deliberate choice, giving the manufacturer and their agents a chance to come clean and clarify the on-going situation. We have seen how that worked out.

Silence or obfuscation on this subject serves only one group of people: those with Dartzeel equipment (new or used) that they want or need to sell. But in protecting their investment they are preying on purchasers ignorant of the real situation. This is not good for those customers. It is not good for the industry as a whole. But it is also not a conspiracy. It’s simply a bunch of individuals with shared interests, all opting to take the same stance. In an industry where there is no office of professional standards, it’s a depressing sight.

So perhaps the questions we should be asking are, what does this tell us about those re-sellers who chose to keep silent and, what does it tell us about the journalists and magazines that chose not to report it or the opportunists who chose to exploit and sensationalise it? For some reason, the phrase “lower than a snake’s belly” keeps coming to mind…

Imagine a world where journalists revealed and reported on facts and people were allowed to form their opinion based on these facts. Without being bombarded by 30,000 TikTok videos a second.

 

[Amir]

I hope good companies like dartzeel be active all the time.
I like dartzeel company.

 

[John T]

Imagine a world where journalists revealed and reported on facts and people were allowed to form their opinion based on these facts. Without being bombarded by 30,000 TikTok videos a second.

Within their feeble fibers I doubt the masses can actually handle facts and reality anymore. They prefer innuendo and polished. You are so spot on; The bombardment of nonsense has removed reason and critical thought...Gray matter is now a rare commodity...

 

[facten]

I posted the below question in the other thread on this based upon Roy's statement "It is the result of a legal process in the Swiss courts, the outcome of which is widely known"

Roy, do you have access to the actual legal document or other formal public disclosure specifying the outcome? If so, can you link the disclosure?

It would seem that this would provide meaningful insight and/or proof one way or the other of where things stand.

As John Winger said in Stripes - "Just the Facts Jack "

 

[facten]

...here is a somewhat different take, if interested:

I'm like everyone else not directly involved and not having access to the presumed legal process outcome that Roy stated in his post so who really knows at this point what are the facts. That said, Jay's video would have more credibility for me if he had stated independent substantiation of what has transpired/things stand.

 

[Elliot G.]

I'm like everyone else not directly involved and not having access to the presumed legal process outcome that Roy stated in his post so who really knows at this point what are the facts. That said, Jay's video would have more credibility for me if he had stated independent substantiation of what has transpired/things stand.

I spoke to Jay this morning as he is someone I know , lives in my area, and his lovely wife does some work for our other business in internet market and advertising. We spoke briefly about this and although I know nothing about the truth of this story I did suggest that he contact DZ and Herve and ask him to address the situation on camera.
I also feel that this is the world today and accountability is something we all crave. If this is a story then we would hope to have all the facts to make up our own minds as to the reality.

 

[Elliot G.]

Imagine a world where journalists revealed and reported on facts and people were allowed to form their opinion based on these facts. Without being bombarded by 30,000 TikTok videos a second.

wouldn't that be wonderful , its called the past sadly

 

[T Boost]

Amazing !

 

[Ron Resnick]

In these days of click-bait, conspiracy theories and fake-news, it’s hardly surprising that I’ve been ascribed all kinds of motives and agendas in ‘outing’ the financial situation at Dartzeel. As usual, the truth is a lot simpler.

I’m a journalist: it’s my job!

This is information, not a rumour or speculation. It is the result of a legal process in the Swiss courts, the outcome of which is widely known, certainly throughout the European high-end: This is not repeating gossip, but reporting a matter of record known to multiple sources and yet, one that neither the manufacturer nor their agents were talking about.

Nor are the reasons behind it particularly hard to fathom. Global uncertainty over wars in the Ukraine and Middle-East have squeezed customer confidence and shrunk demand for high-end audio products. At the same time, the Swiss Franc is riding high, making Swiss products progressively more expensive in international markets – and foreign products cheaper in the Swiss domestic market. For a company producing a small number of really expensive units, that’s a perfect storm.

Why bring up the situation at Dartzeel now and in the way I did?

The judgement has been in place for weeks. Unless the company can meet its obligations, it will be liquidated. Although the brand name itself might continue unaffected, the company itself cannot, at least in its current form. This immediately calls into question continued access to original parts and metalwork essential to on-going servicing of existing products. It calls into question whether any ‘new’ Dartzeel will honour existing warranties. It calls into question whether current re-sellers will be willing or able to service and support existing products. None of this is good new for the resale value of demonstration, stock or pre-owned units. Residual values are likely to plummet.

Posting on WBF was a deliberate choice, giving the manufacturer and their agents a chance to come clean and clarify the on-going situation. We have seen how that worked out.

Silence or obfuscation on this subject serves only one group of people: those with Dartzeel equipment (new or used) that they want or need to sell. But in protecting their investment they are preying on purchasers ignorant of the real situation. This is not good for those customers. It is not good for the industry as a whole. But it is also not a conspiracy. It’s simply a bunch of individuals with shared interests, all opting to take the same stance. In an industry where there is no office of professional standards, it’s a depressing sight.

So perhaps the questions we should be asking are, what does this tell us about those re-sellers who chose to keep silent and, what does it tell us about the journalists and magazines that chose not to report it or the opportunists who chose to exploit and sensationalise it? For some reason, the phrase “lower than a snake’s belly” keeps coming to mind…

Thank you very much for explaining the background here, Roy!