darTZeel out of business?

[matsurus]

What I take away from the DartZeel owner's message is the official and public recognition by a major player in the high-end segment that the price increases of recent years don't make much sense, either for manufacturers or for buyers (perhaps they suit others). Perhaps the start of a new trend towards lower prices

I actually hope this was the straw that finally broke the camels back..

I write this as a normal median income consumer:

I don't think present state of industry in healthy for anyone, prices has gone to the stratosphere. Basically every hifi-enthusiast that i speaker these days have same concern, and that is prices that have gone beyond "normal" level of consumers.
It used to be case that you could buy almost any manufacturers high end line even if you were not extremely wealthy.
Those who had normal median income jobs saved to buy the high end equipment what they really wanted. In finland most expensive systems were almost always those who had "low status" jobs like construction worker, plumber, etc..

Prices were high but fair.

These days even middle-tier equipment prices has gone up too much compared to 10-20 years ago.
These days it's all over, either you buy older used high end equipment, or just give up and buy class-D consumer schmuck chifi. (though i chose the third way, i mostly design and build my own stuff, and modify equipment with better parts..)

This is also the reason hifi is dying as a hobby, younger people take one look at the prices and nope out of the door and i guess "we" collectively are only to blame..

 

[andromedaaudio]

The good thing is the lower priced ( second hand ) stuff mostly sounds at least as good as the "Mk 6 " version
If people think all this high priced stuff is actually better they are being mislead by the reviewer industry .

Which need to go to prison for it lol , see other thread .

I feel no need to change my gear although i got the dough .
My gear is probably " only " 20 K second hand pre / power

 

[matsurus]

what did you expect innovation?

I admit being too naive in this expectation..

About though of modern vs vintage; i have refurbished vintage luxman amplifier completely up to speck and sound was definitely not worse that modern..

 

[Tonari]

Well he is the one selling 1 million dollar founder cartridge. Blaming another company for his failure?

Certainly not blaming any other company for the situation he is on!! Just thinking that may be some competitors are also reevaluating their strategy with this regards. This is the definition of wishful thinking

 

[leyenda]

so a dude bought a 1mn usd cartridge to find out a few months later that the manufacturer said sorry the high end scene is not us we just wanna be like Bose…

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Read it here https://www.monoandstereo.com/dartzeel-audio-restructuring/

 

[Tbzc]

I have great respect for Dartzeel and Hervé. He produces excellent-sounding equipment, and his customer service is truly second to none. However, I can’t help but feel a bit uneasy after reading this. Blaming extreme high prices as something he doesn’t want to be associated with feels disingenuous. Wasn’t Dartzeel one of the companies with the steepest price increases over the years? Take the NHB 108, for example—it started at around $15k and now costs around $70k. The anniversary preamp and stereo amp combo is priced at $250k. Dartzeel played the game of extreme pricing and luxury, and it seems they got burned. That’s what I believe happened. Don’t blame others!

 

[adyc]

I kept hearing Dartzeel’s customer service is second to none. It is certainly not true in this part of the world. Long service time. There is a reason that Dartzeel’s China and HK distributors kept changing in a space of few years. I even heard stories of distributors paying for good which were not delivered.

 

[Kingsrule]

I have great respect for Dartzeel and Hervé. He produces excellent-sounding equipment, and his customer service is truly second to none. However, I can’t help but feel a bit uneasy after reading this. Blaming extreme high prices as something he doesn’t want to be associated with feels disingenuous. Wasn’t Dartzeel one of the companies with the steepest price increases over the years? Take the NHB 108, for example—it started at around $15k and now costs around $70k. The anniversary preamp and stereo amp combo is priced at $250k. Dartzeel played the game of extreme pricing and luxury, and it seems they got burned. That’s what I believe happened. Don’t blame others!

Exactly!

 

[A-Line]

That’s why they are called hifi forums. They are more about the equipment than the music. Is that an issue? I don’t think so. If you want to just talk about music spend time on the Stevehoffman forums. There are hundreds if not thousands of posts every day about music.

Funny, I thought that the primary purpose for owning hifi components is the music.
I'm obviously very confused...

 

[ssfas]

I have great respect for Dartzeel and Hervé. He produces excellent-sounding equipment, and his customer service is truly second to none. However, I can’t help but feel a bit uneasy after reading this. Blaming extreme high prices as something he doesn’t want to be associated with feels disingenuous. Wasn’t Dartzeel one of the companies with the steepest price increases over the years? Take the NHB 108, for example—it started at around $15k and now costs around $70k. The anniversary preamp and stereo amp combo is priced at $250k. Dartzeel played the game of extreme pricing and luxury, and it seems they got burned. That’s what I believe happened. Don’t blame others!

I had a look with reference to the UK inflation index. Their integrated released in 2015 has gone up 16% ahead of inflation and the one released in 2021 has gone up in line with inflation.

If you want a premium integrated, the CTH-8550 is probably up against Dan D'A, Soulution, Gryphon 330 and CH Precision i1. I looked at the others, not the CTH-8550 even though I have a local dealer stocking it. The CTH-8550 seems to have more negatives than positives in this company. Plus my wife thought it the ugliest thing ever. She made a point of saying so when we walked past the DartZeel rack.

Not many people are going to feel sorry for someone making $100k+ products. It's a high risk/return business.

 

[Tonari]

so a dude bought a 1mn usd cartridge to find out a few months later that the manufacturer said sorry the high end scene is not us we just wanna be like Bose…

Then as per my understanding of the DartZeel statement the 1 million dollar cartridge becomes an investment and the coming mk2 of the same cartridge will be sold at a fraction of the price, hopefully with even better SQ

 

[dminches]

Funny, I thought that the primary purpose for owning hifi components is the music.
I'm obviously very confused...

Of course it is all about the music but that doesn’t mean some forums can’t be dedicated to discussing the equipment. Why is that difficult to understand? No one is saying “it is all about the equipment.”

Similarly, there are forums that discussion kitchen equipment. That doesn’t mean isn’t about the food.

 

[A-Line]

Of course it is all about the music but that doesn’t mean some forums can’t be dedicated to discussing the equipment. Why is that difficult to understand? No one is saying “it is all about the equipment.”

Similarly, there are forums that discussion kitchen equipment. That doesn’t mean isn’t about the food.

I never stated that the primary purpose of hifi forums was strictly music.

Even the glossy mags have a music review section even though the primary articles are about audio components...

 

[DasguteOhr]

I admit being too naive in this expectation..

About though of modern vs vintage; i have refurbished vintage luxman amplifier completely up to speck and sound was definitely not worse that modern..

If you ever come across the king of vintage amplifiers, the Pioneer A 27, buy it immediately. Today there are good very expensive integrated amplifiers that sound different but no way better.

 

[Golum]

Just my two cents on the topic and not being on anyone side.
For me it is really difficult to judge certain price points knowing that in many cases manufacturers are selling to distributors for 22-25% of the retail price.
If I take few big names from the Switzerland where fixed costs of production are enormous, and these guys do produce everything within CH, with a top-notch quality having a distribution model as per above, retail prices come up to where they are.
On top shipping costs in last few years went up, top of the line part prices went up, insurance I would say as well, and all this contributed to where we are today. So at least the ones I know personally (and I know them quite a few here) they do not live the life of millionaires, having ultra HiEnd cars parked in front of their houses, luxury apartments in several corners of the world, etc.

So all in all maybe the way FW is as Herve will try to do - produce per order, order directly from the factory and no distro model...who knows what is a better option...in many cases great distributors are the key to good sales and we have them quite a few here on WBF and without them some brands will probably cease to exist...

But to put the entire blame on RSPs is not solely on the manufacturers side...

P.S. Just for illustration - one of my best friends is a hard core DYIer who makes top notch stuff...so his SS stereo amp for example which he is using now with about 25W in A class and rest in AB is a beast of 40+ kg. Using proven available schematics (no R&D cost) with only top of the line parts (transformers, caps (Mundorf, Duelund, etc), Mills resistors, Furutech, top grade CNCed chassis, Silver Neotech wire, etc., etc) costs in the range of 4-5k EUR (parts only). His work, his effort, his time is not included in the price. So if you add all the costs which a normal company/manufacturer would have, I guess you can assume the final price for the end buyer from a branded name...

 

[Thundersnow]

Just my two cents on the topic and not being on anyone side.
For me it is really difficult to judge certain price points knowing that in many cases manufacturers are selling to distributors for 22-25% of the retail price.
If I take few big names from the Switzerland where fixed costs of production are enormous, and these guys do produce everything within CH, with a top-notch quality having a distribution model as per above, retail prices come up to where they are.
On top shipping costs in last few years went up, top of the line part prices went up, insurance I would say as well, and all this contributed to where we are today. So at least the ones I know personally (and I know them quite a few here) they do not live the life of millionaires, having ultra HiEnd cars parked in front of their houses, etc.

So all in all maybe the way is as Herve will try to do - produce per order, maybe order directly from the factory and no distro model...who knows what is a better option...in many cases great distributors are the key to good sales and we have them quite a few here on WBF and without them some brands will probably cease to exist...

But to put the entire blame on RSPs is not solely on the manufacturers side...

Very well put.

 

[Atmasphere]

Then as per my understanding of the DartZeel statement the 1 million dollar cartridge becomes an investment and the coming mk2 of the same cartridge will be sold at a fraction of the price, hopefully with even better SQ

Wait- what? Someone has a million dollar cartridge? Did they sell any?

 

[Golum]

Wait- what? Someone has a million dollar cartridge? Did they sell any?

Knowing Herve I would not be surprised he did it in a cynical way...

 

[bonzo75]

This is also the reason hifi is dying as a hobby, younger people take one look at the prices and nope out of the door and i guess "we" collectively are only to blame..

There is a room in hifi for people willing to buy LPs to listen to music. The high end we talk about is an Alpha A hobby of people trying to get on fellow forum readers radar and outdo each other. One of the key ways to do that was price and size and pictures.