Do controllers pollute your Network?

[luca.pelliccioli]

Our digital rig implies a DAC, a streamer, a server, a router maybe a switch and a filter. We know how this network is usually very noisy. Manufacturers and audio designers are struggling to get rid of this issue. As audiophiles we are constantly trying to clean as much as possible the digital path because sound quality can be really different.

Now I’m focusing just on the controller in this scenario.
I’m referring to a device we all need to play the music, whatever Roon or proprietary App like Lumin or Sense we are using.

Being the controller an iPad or iPhone or whatever you use… how this device should require more attention in order to avoid pollution?

1. Electrical pollution, it is not an audio device but it is constantly connected to our delicate system, and another worst thing is that there is also a switch mode power supply around to keep it charged.
2. Signal pollution, we necessarily need an internet connection, to select and play tracks and/or to navigate our beloved forum while we are listening to music. Some people prefer wired connection (like me) and others prefer WiFi.

In any case after having spent time and money to preserve our audio gear from noisy garbage (components themselves are injecting noise, servers for instance)… I think that we need to learn more about how controllers should be handled.

I keep my iPad wired (no wifi) and connected via ethernet directly to the router, through a Pink Faun LAN isolator. It is plugged to a different non dedicated line, in a Furutech e-TP609 NCF power distributor.

What do you use and why?

Are we ready for an audiophile controller, specifically designed (or modified) for that purpose?

 

[tmallin]

I use a dedicated iPad Pro as my streaming controller. It is connected to my home network via Wi-Fi. It controls my Lumin X1 and Roon Core which is a Nucleus Plus Clone. The Lumin App allows me to disable streaming from sources which are not "native" to the Lumin (such as Sirius/XM, Jazz Radio, etc.) and also allows disabling the Roon Ready capability of the X1. I do this unless I want to use those functions.

Since this iPad is dedicated to this streaming system, I have eliminated all apps not truly necessary for streaming. I have also turned off all options not needed for such streaming--e.g., Bluetooth, Siri, Background App Refresh, etc.--the list is very long.

I do not leave the iPad's SMPS plugged into the wall outlet. I only plug it in and connect the iPad to it when the iPad needs charging and I'm not listening to the system. When I'm not listening seriously and have the system only playing for background music purposes, I turn off the iPad to save its battery. The Lumin X1 continues playing the chosen background music indefinitely even with the iPad turned off.

For "serious listening" I also turn off my iPhone and iWatch, as well as other several other network connected devices I have found to affect sound quality when they are connected to the network.

Despite these steps, I can clearly hear the sound of the system improve when I turn this iPad off. The Lumin X1 will continue to play the chosen program at the selected volume, but no changes can be made when that is done.

I have a feeling that the only type of controller which might not affect the sound quality as much as the iPad would be a remote control which does not use the internet to connect to the Lumin X1. Lumin makes such a device, but I do not use it since it does not provide full control or functionality. See https://www.luminmusic.com/lumin-ir-control-package.html

We audiophiles do what we can to tweak our system sound. At a certain point, however, you have to make choices about what is practical, versus what is possible to achieve in terms of improving your system sound. The balance between practicality and possibility will be different for each listener. See my further discussion of this general topic here.

 

[luca.pelliccioli]

I use a dedicated iPad Pro as my streaming controller. It is connected to my home network via Wi-Fi. It controls my Lumin X1 and Roon Core which is a Nucleus Plus Clone. The Lumin App allows me to disable streaming from sources which are not "native" to the Lumin (such as Sirius/XM, Jazz Radio, etc.) and also allows disabling the Roon Ready capability of the X1. I do this unless I want to use those functions.

Since this iPad is dedicated to this streaming system, I have eliminated all apps not truly necessary for streaming. I have also turned off all options not needed for such streaming--e.g., Bluetooth, Siri, Background App Refresh, etc.--the list is very long.

I do not leave the iPad's SMPS plugged into the wall outlet. I only plug it in and connect the iPad to it when the iPad needs charging and I'm not listening to the system. When I'm not listening seriously and have the system only playing for background music purposes, I turn off the iPad to save its battery. The Lumin X1 continues playing the chosen background music indefinitely even with the iPad turned off.

For "serious listening" I also turn off my iPhone and iWatch, as well as other several other network connected devices I have found to affect sound quality when they are connected to the network.

Despite these steps, I can clearly hear the sound of the system improve when I turn this iPad off. The Lumin X1 will continue to play the chosen program at the selected volume, but no changes can be made when that is done.

I have a feeling that the only type of controller which might not affect the sound quality as much as the iPad would be a remote control which does not use the internet to connect to the Lumin X1. Lumin makes such a device, but I do not use it since it does not provide full control or functionality. See https://www.luminmusic.com/lumin-ir-control-package.html

We audiophiles do what we can to tweak our system sound. At a certain point, however, you have to make choices about what is practical, versus what is possible to achieve in terms of improving your system sound. The balance between practicality and possibility will be different for each listener. See my further discussion of this general topic here.

Really interesting, thanks for sharing.
I'm using a dedicated router with its own fiber connection and ISP's contract. The router is wifi disabled by software settings and powered by a Sean Jacobs PSU. There are 2 ethernet cables connected to it: one for music (Muon Pro filter > Audiophile Switch > Innuos server/streamer > ... ) and another for the controller, an iPad Pro, wired via an Ethernet/USB C adapter. The iPad is always wifi disabled and operating in flight mode.
Electrically my room has its own circuit, with a different panel/circuit breakers and main wire from the external of the house. Sharing only the ground rod with the rest of the house, by the law of course.

Back to the topic: I'll try disconnecting the iPad from the SMPS while listening to music. Just recharging it when I'm not playing music in the room, as you're suggesting.

 

[tmallin]

My current audio system is detailed at this link. In my area Xfinity supposedly does not allow multiple ISP contracts for my single family residence. Also, Xfinity uses only coaxial RG-6 connections from its service on the telephone pole outside my house to my router. I use fiber optic connections from the ethernet switch in my audio room to connect my Lumin L2 and X1.

In my experience, the sonically worst "offenders" in terms of items connected to my home network are my iWatch and iPhone, but disconnecting most other internet connected items from the network is also audible.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

I use a dedicated iPad Pro as my streaming controller. It is connected to my home network via Wi-Fi. It controls my Lumin X1 and Roon Core which is a Nucleus Plus Clone. The Lumin App allows me to disable streaming from sources which are not "native" to the Lumin (such as Sirius/XM, Jazz Radio, etc.) and also allows disabling the Roon Ready capability of the X1. I do this unless I want to use those functions.

Since this iPad is dedicated to this streaming system, I have eliminated all apps not truly necessary for streaming. I have also turned off all options not needed for such streaming--e.g., Bluetooth, Siri, Background App Refresh, etc.--the list is very long.

I do not leave the iPad's SMPS plugged into the wall outlet. I only plug it in and connect the iPad to it when the iPad needs charging and I'm not listening to the system. When I'm not listening seriously and have the system only playing for background music purposes, I turn off the iPad to save its battery. The Lumin X1 continues playing the chosen background music indefinitely even with the iPad turned off.

For "serious listening" I also turn off my iPhone and iWatch, as well as other several other network connected devices I have found to affect sound quality when they are connected to the network.

Despite these steps, I can clearly hear the sound of the system improve when I turn this iPad off. The Lumin X1 will continue to play the chosen program at the selected volume, but no changes can be made when that is done.

I have a feeling that the only type of controller which might not affect the sound quality as much as the iPad would be a remote control which does not use the internet to connect to the Lumin X1. Lumin makes such a device, but I do not use it since it does not provide full control or functionality. See https://www.luminmusic.com/lumin-ir-control-package.html

We audiophiles do what we can to tweak our system sound. At a certain point, however, you have to make choices about what is practical, versus what is possible to achieve in terms of improving your system sound. The balance between practicality and possibility will be different for each listener. See my further discussion of this general topic here.

I have gone this direction only I am using MS Surface and it is connected by ethernet. I have no Wi-Fi in my listening room and use the Surface as my control using the Innuos Sense interface. The Surface is isolated by using the English Electric EE1 to isolate the ethernet connection going back into my switch.

 

[tmallin]

What I find fascinating about this issue is the lack of clarity as to where this sonic degradation is coming from. My electrical current coming out of my P.I. Audio Uberbusses measures clean as a whistle (in contrast to other electrical outlets in the house). I keep my power cords as short as possible to minimize noise pick up downstream from the Uberbusses. My Benchmark analog interconnects and speaker cables are of Canare StarQuad construction which should minimize noise pickup. Once I turn off my iPhone and iWatch none of the electronics in my audio room has Wi-Fi reception capability. There is absolutely no audible hum or hiss from the speakers at any volume level--proper gain structuring in combination with the low gain setting of my Benchmark amps assures that. Bluetooth is not used in the audio room.

I can't turn off cellular network signals, but once my iPhone and iWatch are turned off, nothing in my audio room can receive such signals. My iPad controller is Wi-Fi only.

This leaves only my iPad controller which operates on battery power so it can't be directly injecting noise into power lines. Yes, it operates on Wi-Fi, but since the currently playing program keeps playing even when I turn off the iPad controller, and since I've lowered the "overhead" on it to the maximum extent possible by removing all apps and functions not related to audio streaming, I have to wonder how much "over the air" interference the iPad is sending out when I'm not changing anything with its controls.

And yet, when I turn off the iPad controller, within a few seconds the improvement in sound quality is unmistakable.

In my house, only my audio equipment is connected to my router via ethernet. Everything else (e.g., computers, TVs, phones, other music players) connects to my router via Wi-Fi. Sometime when my wife is not home I will experiment with turning off my router's Wi-Fi capability and listen for what that does for the sound quality in my audio room.

 

[wil]

What I find fascinating about this issue is the lack of clarity as to where this sonic degradation is coming from. My electrical current coming out of my P.I. Audio Uberbusses measures clean as a whistle (in contrast to other electrical outlets in the house). I keep my power cords as short as possible to minimize noise pick up downstream from the Uberbusses. My Benchmark analog interconnects and speaker cables are of Canare StarQuad construction which should minimize noise pickup. Once I turn off my iPhone and iWatch none of the electronics in my audio room has Wi-Fi reception capability. There is absolutely no audible hum or hiss from the speakers at any volume level--proper gain structuring in combination with the low gain setting of my Benchmark amps assures that. Bluetooth is not used in the audio room.

I can't turn off cellular network signals, but once my iPhone and iWatch are turned off, nothing in my audio room can receive such signals. My iPad controller is Wi-Fi only.

This leaves only my iPad controller which operates on battery power so it can't be directly injecting noise into power lines. Yes, it operates on Wi-Fi, but since the currently playing program keeps playing even when I turn off the iPad controller, and since I've lowered the "overhead" on it to the maximum extent possible by removing all apps and functions not related to audio streaming, I have to wonder how much "over the air" interference the iPad is sending out when I'm not changing anything with its controls.

And yet, when I turn off the iPad controller, within a few seconds the improvement in sound quality is unmistakable.

@tmallin, Could you clarify: are you saying that even when your iPad is disconnected from it’s power supply and disconnected from it’s WiFi, that turning the iPad off still has a positive impact on your sound?

Is so, I can’t imagine why this would be the case?

 

[Salectric]

Everything plugged into the wall affects the sound, regardless of source. In my case, I listen mostly to vinyl so I always unplug my DAC, transport and streamer from the wall outlets when I am listening. Leaving any of them plugged in, even if the power is turned off, has an adverse effect on the sound. Likewise when I listen to digital, I unplug the phono gear from the wall.

Even though my hifi gear is on dedicated circuits, appliances elsewhere in the house still affect the sound. My latest peeve is with the charger for my electric toothbrush. If it’s plugged in, the sound is worse even though the music room is on the opposite side of the house. And this is not my mind playing tricks—-I discovered this totally by accident one day when I couldn’t understand why a record I had played earlier that morning did not sound as good. It occurred to me I had connected the charger so I went upstairs and unplugged it, and the good sound was back.

The scary thing is the vast number of devices on the electrical grid polluting our electricity and we have no control over them.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Everything plugged into the wall affects the sound, regardless of source. In my case, I listen mostly to vinyl so I always unplug my DAC, transport and streamer from the wall outlets when I am listening. Leaving any of them plugged in, even if the power is turned off, has an adverse effect on the sound. Likewise when I listen to digital, I unplug the phono gear from the wall.

Even though my hifi gear is on dedicated circuits, appliances elsewhere in the house still affect the sound. My latest peeve is with the charger for my electric toothbrush. If it’s plugged in, the sound is worse even though the music room is on the opposite side of the house. And this is not my mind playing tricks—-I discovered this totally by accident one day when I couldn’t understand why a record I had played earlier that morning did not sound as good. It occurred to me I had connected the charger so I went upstairs and unplugged it, and the good sound was back.

The scary thing is the vast number of devices on the electrical grid polluting our electricity and we have no control over them.

REALLY? I just did this experiment and nothing, notta, sounded the same. Guess I have some awesome plug in filters from Puron, (4) LessLoss 640X Fire Walls (2) and IsoTek Corvus 5. I also have 5 dedicated circuits. Or my hearing is really bad

 

[hopkins]

I don't see how a controller could affect the sound in any way. The only thing it is doing is sending commands to your server, and receiving updates. Provided you are using the same server (ex: Roon), then changing the controller (ex: switching between different phones or tablets) is not going to affect the way the server runs. As far as overall network usage, I doubt it is significant. Once you hit play, there's not much trafic going on to and from the controller (and you could in fact put it in sleep mode if you are so worried about it). The need to activate wifi could be an issue, but once you do that, the choice of "controller" will probably have no impact on the overall network trafic.

 

[Salectric]

REALLY? I just did this experiment and nothing, notta, sounded the same. Guess I have some awesome plug in filters from Puron, (4) LessLoss 640X Fire Walls (2) and IsoTek Corvus 5. I also have 5 dedicated circuits. Or my hearing is really bad

Maybe your plug in filters really are awesome. All of my equipment is plugged directly into wall sockets. No filters, no power strips.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Maybe your plug in filters really are awesome. All of my equipment is plugged directly into wall sockets. No filters, no power strips.

Jeez I guess or my electrician did and awesome job, All my amplification is plugged into power distribution center with out any surge or EMI RFI filters. The Purons are on this outlet on a separate block.

 

[luca.pelliccioli]

I have the iPad hardwired to the router (no wifi). And plugged into a Furutech strip (not on a dedicated line).
If I disconnect the SMPS I’m trying to understand if I can hear something different. It seems yes but might be psychoacoustic!

 

[wil]

From what I understand (maybe) when the iPad controller is connected to your server, it’s creating its share of activity which has some associated noise.

My question is, if the iPad is not connected and completely turned off, how could it possibly affect anything in the system?

This seems to be what tmallin is reporting, unless I’m mis-reading.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

I have the iPad hardwired to the router (no wifi). And plugged into a Furutech strip (not on a dedicated line).
If I disconnect the SMPS I’m trying to understand if I can hear something different. It seems yes but might be psychoacoustic!

I am using a MS Surface and same here no wifi. No wifi in my listening space at all.

 

[tmallin]

Wil, this is just another example of disconnecting/turning off things in the house that seem to make subtle positive differences in the sound of my system. As I explained in my post in Tom's Corner here (and the other posts linked to from that one) this has been so since my experiments in the 1970s, well before there were any digital audio components.

But specifically as to my iPad streaming controller: It is never physically connected to my home network and is never physically connected to the power line when I listen; it connects to my network via Wi-Fi and runs on its battery while I'm listening. The system sounds just fine using it as normal.

But there are subtle sonic upticks when I (1) close the Lumin App, (2) put the iPad in Airplane Mode, and (3) actually turn off the iPad. The least subtle of these is (3), actually turning off the iPad controller. Why this should be, I really don't know, but my SWAG is that it has to do with less RFI in the room when the iPad is turned off. The system will continue playing "indefinitely," but I can't change the volume or the program since my streamer has no physical button controls.

Note also that you definitely should turn off your iWatch and iPhone when listening seriously. The improvements in system sound from those steps are a bit less subtle.

My current system details are at this link.

 

[ssfas]

This seems to be a paranoia thread.

I use a Ubiquiti 24-port and 2xSFP managed switch (about $250) that provides 90w PoE that is sufficient for 5 access points. (I currently have 4 in use.) A controller ($100) isolates the hifi system's ethernet from the rest of the house by creating a separate VLAN. The only other device on that VLAN is my music library. So the only data bouncing down the fibre optic cable to the streamer is what I want it to receive. Ubiquiti access points work over all connected networks, so I just have to connect my phone or iPad to the hifi network and it will control it (Innuos Sense in my case).

Power is not an issue because my supply is effectively three separate 100A 400v feeds from the street and one is dedicated to the hifi, and isolation is done by a Puritan PM156.

I'm not sure what else is needed besides asking my wife and everyone in the street to disconnect their power and leave town when I want to stream music.

 

[Tuckers]

So I could see a couple of theoretical reason this may be happening. Regarding having the iPad affecting the sound. If the Roon or Lumin app is running on the iPad , then the Nucleus clone is sending constant data to the network for the iPad to pick up. Sending this data might impact the servers SQ???? I have noticed nothing like this in my system.

Also, if you are hearing an impact on SQ from an iPhone or iPad connected to your wifi network. An idea would be to add a dedicated wifi access point/router and a switch for your audio system. I have this. Then add network isolation devices on the network around that switch. I have two iFi LAN isilencers. I put one on the cable running into the switch from my main router, and one on my fiber media converter box that goes towards my streamer. I also have a Stack Audio SmoothLAN on the ethernet input to my Innuos Pulsar streamer. This along with the Fiber bridge I have added to isolate the ethernet that leaves my 2nd switch into my audio system provides a lot of isolation. At least for me it really tames the streaming beast.

 

[agisthos]

I never experimented with the controller device itself as I always use iPhone, but the app used makes a significant difference. Best sounding for me is JPlay iOS.

Also the upnp software running on a NAS changed the sound a lot for local files. Best sounding for me was Minimserver.