electrical storms and pulling power to the system

[Bill Hart]

We've had back to back to back electrical storms, some pretty severe, some a distant rumble, like a battle beyond the horizon. Based on a fairly reliable weather 'app' (Intellicast for iPad), all I see is more for the next week.
I pull the power (read: disconnect components from the wall sockets) to all system components if 'thunder storms' threaten. Basically, that means no main system music. Just curious how others deal with this? Are we all on the board right now because of the weather?

 

[amirm]

It is critical that if you do that no device has an auxiliary path for the surges to get to it. For 2-channel systems this is not an issue but for your TV entertainment if you have cable, etc. the surge through them will be much more destructive if your equipment is unplugged and hence lacking ground.

 

[Bill Hart]

It is critical that if you do that no device has an auxiliary path for the surges to get to it. For 2-channel systems this is not an issue but for your TV entertainment if you have cable, etc. the surge through them will be much more destructive if your equipment is unplugged and hence lacking ground.

Only talking about the two channel hi fi system, it is not connected to any thing else, like an antenna, cable, a a satellite or Internet- but I take your point.
My question was, do you guys just not listen? That's no fun, but where i'm at, since by the time the storm is on top of me, it's too late. (if you can hear it, it can hit)

 

[amirm]

Interesting Amir. Have any technical sources for this?

Tom

There is a good article on that from NIST: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...kYG4BQ&usg=AFQjCNHRsy6XweFqlAkVy4SgR4A4ZTK3mA

 

[amirm]

My question was, do you guys just not listen? That's no fun, but where i'm at, since by the time the storm is on top of me, it's too late. (if you can hear it, it can hit)

Unless I feel it in my seat, I don't do anything about it . In my new home I have whole house protection and far more electronics powering my house than my audio system . So I take it seriously there.

 

[Robh3606]

I pull the power (read: disconnect components from the wall sockets) to all system components if 'thunder storms' threaten. Basically, that means no main system music. Just curious how others deal with this? Are we all on the board right now because of the weather?

I will power it all down including the computers but I don't unplug. I have had a few times where the power pop's off then on very quickly in less than a second and it plays havoc with everything. I am more concerned about that than an actual strike to my home simply because it has occured several times over the years.

As far as a direct strike if all that happens is it all gets burned up I would consider myself a very lucky person.

Rob

 

[audioarcher]

It is critical that if you do that no device has an auxiliary path for the surges to get to it. For 2-channel systems this is not an issue but for your TV entertainment if you have cable, etc. the surge through them will be much more destructive if your equipment is unplugged and hence lacking ground.

All you have to do is disconnect the tv cable from your cable box as well.

Luckily we don't get electrical storms here very often. I have never unplugged anything in my house because of lightning. Not to say no one in my area has had lightening damage but I have not heard of any accounts from people I have come in contact with in my area.

If I lived in an area that had lightening often then maybe I would be more cautious.

 

[Bill Hart]

When I was unemployed I would run around the house and unplug all kinds of stuff cause I did not need any more grief in my life, however, I think most people just ignore the possiblities of lightning coming down the mains and play their systems..me included. But....when I hear a close air to ground strike, well, I go "oh sh..t" and turn off and unplug but always think I hope it dont hit the exact instant while I am unplugging!!!.

They say to stay out of the shower or bathtub too...had to do with metal pipes and current flow on them from a lighting hit...there is a whole lot of stuff on lightning..lets just say I respect it and its yucky too.


I never worry using headphones and a protable cd player or any other battery device....you know what they say...like a 500 pound gorilla, it goes where it wants.

In my experience, grounding an object also makes it more attractive to lightning...but its done for safety purposes but I have seen where the lightning protection system attracts the lightning, it flows a bit of the way along the ground wire and then jumps off it to something else...tricky and unpredictable stuff.

Tom

That's sorta where i was mindsetwise once, the 'oh ****,' i hope Jupiter (or whoever the lightening god was) doesn't get me; interesting on the shower, i had heard that as a child, and always thought it had to do with the water (idiot alert) but it makes total sense/pipes. Thanks, Tom.

 

[Bill Hart]

Unless I feel it in my seat, I don't do anything about it . In my new home I have whole house protection and far more electronics powering my house than my audio system . So I take it seriously there.

So, Amirm, is it that a normal surge is protected by the whole house thing (giant transformer?) and if it is a direct strike, it won't matter anyway?

 

[Bill Hart]

There is a good article on that from NIST: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...kYG4BQ&usg=AFQjCNHRsy6XweFqlAkVy4SgR4A4ZTK3mA

will read, thank you.

 

[Bill Hart]

will read, thank you.

Just read it, pretty impressive publication, nicely straddles the basics with very comprehesisve coverage of the topic, and even a section for contractors.
I will have an Equi=Tech 10kVa panel installed in my next room for the audio; i should probably do whole house protection for the applicances in the rest of the house.

 

[amirm]

So, Amirm, is it that a normal surge is protected by the whole house thing (giant transformer?) and if it is a direct strike, it won't matter anyway?

I suspect you already have this answer but just in case, it is all a function of how good the ground is (and the quality of the protection devices). This should be checked. We are lucky that where we live is rainy a lot so conductance is good. If you live in dry environments and sandy soil, the protection may not work well.

And yes, a whole house system is key here. And a good product design there. The solution in almost all of this is to use an MOV and shunt the surge to ground. The MOV then takes the brunt of this and starts to cook. If it can't handle the load, there should be a fuse that opens up. If there is not, the device can smoke! Here are some examples:

The above are well known brand of such products (Eaton). Yet due to cost saving or lack of understanding of the problem we see that they fail and fail catastrophically in the field.

Here is an example of a well designed unit (by Total Protection Solutions):

 

[Mike Lavigne]

in the Seattle area we have very few electrical storms compared to other parts of the US.....so it's not a major concern. OTOH i do see a good amount of extreme weather in the mountains where i live and do have power outages where there are surges and flickering that can be harmful. i have that same Equi=tech 10WQ isolation transformer panel Whart mentions and that does provide excellent protection for my system. one thing i like is that if my lights go out (which are not on the same circuit as my gear) i still have 5-10 seconds before my system loses power to quickly turn off my amp and preamp. the 10kva transformer holds lots of power and that is a comfort.

prior to the Equi-tech i did have fuses blown a few times, but in the 2 years since that install no issues.

 

[amirm]

We do have a lot of power failures here Mike and that causes a lot of problems. I have a generator at our vacation house that is powered by propane. I get a call from the neighbor saying that it has been running for a few days even though the power was on! I come and find all the fuses blown in it and the transfer switch making it think there was no power and kept running using up almost $500 worth of fuel! When this happened my brother who lives nearby said there was a strong power surge. This was prior to me protecting the house with whole house devices.

 

[Bill Hart]

Amir: thanks, helpful. I will do a whole house system for everything but the hi-fi and run that thru the E=T. I gather than, in the case of a direct strike, none of this stuff is going to protect, but that's beyond my control. (my understanding is that the a direct strike is so powerful that it will 'jump' gaps in power 'breaks' and just literally fry stuff) In Tx, I'm gonna have to get a good grounding set up as well. Here in NY, it's moist- in fact, endless rain this summer- and grounding was done pretty effectively when we set up the dedicated subpanel, etc.
Thank you again. Hi, Mike!

 

[amirm]

Great. Just a points though: I hope you know that installation of balanced power in residential setting is against code in US. It is only allowed for commercial installations. Chances of having issues is very low of course but should there be a fire and fingers pointed that way, you may have insurance issues.

If your installer says otherwise, try to get that in writing from him.

 

[Bill Hart]

Great. Just a points though: I hope you know that installation of balanced power in residential setting is against code in US. It is only allowed for commercial installations. Chances of having issues is very low of course but should there be a fire and fingers pointed that way, you may have insurance issues.

If your installer says otherwise, try to get that in writing from him.

I hope to have it installed in a separate outbuilding. FWIW, I spoke to the electrical inspector in Austin already about it. But, I hear you.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

We do have a lot of power failures here Mike and that causes a lot of problems. I have a generator at our vacation house that is powered by propane. I get a call from the neighbor saying that it has been running for a few days even though the power was on! I come and find all the fuses blown in it and the transfer switch making it think there was no power and kept running using up almost $500 worth of fuel! When this happened my brother who lives nearby said there was a strong power surge. This was prior to me protecting the house with whole house devices.

agree we do get our share of power outages; especially here in the mountains.

we have an 11kva generator (Kohler) for our house (it does not run my 2-channel system in the barn) that uses natural gas which has a transfer panel that works well. it's never kept running after the power came back on. 6 years ago when there was an area wide 10 day power outage it ran the whole time with zero issues.

 

[amirm]

I got you beat Mike. My generator is 35 KW! It has a 6 cylinder engine to drive it and required a poured concrete floor, crane to lift it, etc.

I felt good until I heard that one of our customers has one 10X bigger with a 10 cylinder engine and takes up a building the size of a garage! Customer complained about frequent device failures so we put in an extensive whole house system. In addition, all of the racks we installed had "local" surge protection devices and UPS. Customer problems persisted! On generator switch over the UPS would kick in and never go off battery. The surge protectors would bitterly complain about the surge and refuse to go back online. Temptation was to remove the local devices due to assumption that the whole house unit had done the job anyway.

Not being a fan of hacks and really analyzing the problem, we asked the company that supplied us the whole house system to analyze what was going on. They bring a consultant who discovers the three-phase transfer switch for the generator was wired wrong and it was dumping 120 volt on the neutral wire while it was switching over, causing the devices in the rack to see 2X the normal voltage for many seconds! This work was done years ago by someone who clearly did not know what they were doing. We fixed the wiring (we have high-voltage licensed technicians on staff) and all is well now. It is pretty important to have the right installers on these jobs as soon as they become unusual.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I got you beat Mike. My generator is 35 KW! It has a 6 cylinder engine to drive it and required a poured concrete floor, crane to lift it, etc.

I felt good until I heard that one of our customers has one 10X bigger with a 10 cylinder engine and takes up a building the size of a garage! Customer complained about frequent device failures so we put in an extensive whole house system. In addition, all of the racks we installed had "local" surge protection devices and UPS. Customer problems persisted! On generator switch over the UPS would kick in and never go off battery. The surge protectors would bitterly complain about the surge and refuse to go back online. Temptation was to remove the local devices due to assumption that the whole house unit had done the job anyway.

Not being a fan of hacks and really analyzing the problem, we asked the company that supplied us the whole house system to analyze what was going on. They bring a consultant who discovers the three-phase transfer switch for the generator was wired wrong and it was dumping 120 volt on the neutral wire while it was switching over, causing the devices in the rack to see 2X the normal voltage for many seconds! This work was done years ago by someone who clearly did not know what they were doing. We fixed the wiring (we have high-voltage licensed technicians on staff) and all is well now. It is pretty important to have the right installers on these jobs as soon as they become unusual.

ok; you win.

my home has natural gas fed radiant floor heat and ovens/cooktops, so i really don't need huge KVa's since there are no fans or major uses for electricity. but i will admit i it's not wired to watch my Home Theatre in the house so i'm limited to my other flat screens for TV or movies. i use to have Direct TV but switched to Comcast a few years back so typically a power outage also means no internet or cable. i seem to cope well as i just read which i love to do anyway.

reading in front of a fire when it looks like this......



.....is very enjoyable.

and having a 35Kva generator means you are in a neighborhood beyond me for sure.

and btw, hi Bill!